Posted by: adventlife | March 7, 2012

Controversy About the “Great Controversy,” by Nic Samojluk

Most Adventists are aware that there is currently a great controversy taking place regarding Ellen White’s the “Great Controversy” book. Our new General Conference [GC] president, Ted Wilson, decided to distribute said book by the millions, and many zealous Adventist members donated millions of dollars for this unprecedented project apparently unawares that what was being published was an abridged version of the original one written by the author.

A Sanitized Version of Ellen White’s Book 

A  careful inspection of the book being distributed by the millions reveals that it actually is a sanitized version of the “Great Controversy” in which a large number of chapters dealing with the role of the Catholic Church and offensive to Rome were deleted in order to make the content of the book more palatable to the Catholic Church. The argument is that the Catholic organization no longer resembles the one which persecuted, tortured, and killed the saints during the Inquisition centuries ago.

The Donors and the Critics

Critics like David Mould, who some years ago published the complete version of Mrs. White book without paying any royalties to the White Estate argue that those donors who innocently contributed their funds assuming that the original version of the book would be distributed, should be entitled to a refund, and that publishing en emasculated version of the original book does not do justice to the original intent and goal of its author.

This controversy about the revised edition of Ellen White’s book is not something new, but rather a rekindling of the fight between the General Conference and David Mould when several years ago he decided to publish Mrs. White book without paying any royalties to the White Estate. He was sued by the GC but prevailed because apparently the church had failed to extend the books copyright in a timely manner.

At that time, I wrote the article which appears below, and which is very relevant today because it sheds some light on the renewed controversy about one of the most controversial production of Ellen White’s prolific pen. Here it is:

*********

A. Reviving the Great Controversy

When E. White wrote her masterpiece work of literature, “The Great Controversy,” over a century ago, there was a predominant anti-Catholic feeling in the United States, which is clearly reflected in her book. Since then, with the passage of time, the Blue Laws designed to enforce the sanctity of Sunday religious observance faded into the background, and finally were almost relegated to oblivion; nevertheless, a zealous and vitriolic SDA independent preacher named David Mould, founder of the Laymen for Religious Liberty Ministries, with headquarters in the State of Florida, decided to revive the core message of the book.

The first thing he did was to republish White’s book a decade ago with a centerpiece containing nearly 150 color pictures, which he advertised in huge billboards and by means of a six-page ad in the Time Magazine. He managed to do this without the need to pay any royalties to the White Estate. His billboards ignited quite a furor both among Catholics and Adventists as well, because it tended to revive the now fading animosity between Protestants and Catholics. His ministry suffered a severe setback, when his staff resigned following allegations that he had been carrying an adulterous affair with one of his assistants.

B. Adding Fuel to the Fire

Fuel was added to the recently rekindled fire from an unexpected source: The Vatican. Two years ago, Pope John Paul II issued a 20,000 word document entitled “ Dies Domini,” in which he encouraged Christians to protect the sanctity of the Lord’s Day, which he identified with Sunday, in spite of the fact that both the Ten Commandments and the Creation story found in Genesis equates the Sabbath day of rest with the Seventh Day of the week. Energized by this action by the Pontiff, an ex-Roman Catholic named Rafael Perez, pastor of the “Eternal Gospel Church,” originally founded by SDA believers, purchased two full pages of advertising in the Washington Times, coupled with similar space in other newspapers of major circulation, in which he identified the Vatican as the seat of the anti-Christ, and reminded readers that the true day of rest was Saturday instead of Sunday.

C. Pandemonium Erupts

Pastor Perez probably did not suspect the fury his actions would generate. Washington’s Cardinal James Hickey labeled the ad as an uncalled attack upon all Christians who keep Sunday as their chosen day of worship, and demanded a formal apology from the General Conference of SDA’s. The church’s attorney contacted Pastor Perez, threatened to file a lawsuit, and soon after, the beleaguered pastor learned that the church had taken legal action to stop him from using the name Seventh-day Adventist. The result was that almost a year ago, a Florida court ruled in favor of the plaintiff, and Pastor Perez’ Eternal Gospel Church was ordered to cease using the SDA identity. There was an appeal, and the case was eventually settled through court mediation. The net result is that Perez’ Florida church, originally labeled as the “Eternal Gospel Church of Seventh-day Adventists” now bears the following sign: “Eternal Gospel Church … Founded in 1992 by Seventh-day Believers (Not affiliated with the General Conference of Maryland)”.

D. A Book is Born

Followingthe settlement, with the assistance of David Mould, the founder of the Laymen for Religious Liberty Ministries organization, Pastor Perez published a book entitled “With Your Tithe,” in which he questioned the right of the General Conference to pay their attorneys with tithe funds, absent a consent by the rank and file members of the Seventh-day Adventist church. He also wondered whether the church had abandoned its position on the Vatican as described in the Great Controversy, where the persecuting power labeled as “The Beast” is identified with Rome. Finally, he further questioned the validity of former G.C. president, Neal C. Wilson, who had publicly stated that our long-held view of the Vatican’s role in the earth’s final days events has been discarded on “the trash heap of history.” If this is the case, Pastor Perez wanted to know who made these changes in our official dogma, and when.

E. What is at Stake?

You probably realize that a lot is at stake here! If we no longer accept E.White’s description of the events immediately preceding Jesus Christ return to this earth, then what do we do with the book The Great Controversy? On the other hand, if we still hold to our traditional view of the Vatican’s role as alluded to in Revelation, then why do we sever our relationship with any organization determined to vigorously divulge what our prophet clearly described in her monumental literary production? After all, what the offending SDA pastor published in the newspapers did not contain anything different from what we have in the above-alluded book by E. White. Are we embarrassed by what she openly held and taught? Has the world situation changed so drastically that the new doctrinal wine may require new wineskins? Are her prophetic predictions perhaps reminiscent of Jonah’s frustration when his announced imminent destruction of Nineveh failed to materialize?

F. Our Adventist Eschatology

It is evident that our traditional Adventist eschatology is being questioned at the highest levels of our church organization. Personally, I would offer the following humble solution to this serious dilemma facing the church: 1. Prophetic predictions are not set in concrete, but are rather subject to human response to the divine warnings. When a father tells his unruly son, “Johnny, you’ll get a spanking,” I doubt that he is more concerned about the accuracy of his prediction than about a hoped-for change in his behavior. 2. The original application of the predictions found in Revelation had to do with Imperial Rome, and its eventual application by Luther to the Vatican was a secondary one. At that time, the Catholic Church represented both Caesar and God; today the Pope holds only religious authority over his subjects. 3. It is unfair to hold the present Pope responsible for the sins committed by the church during the Inquisition many centuries ago. Besides, he already apologized for this numerous times. 4. The Lord holds us responsible for our current actions, instead of the actions of our predecessors.

G. A New Eschatology

I humbly propose that we adopt a new eschatology based on what Jesus stated about the last days events as described vividly in the 25th chapter of Matthew. He told his disciples that at the last day the factor determining our destiny would be, not whether we worship on the correct day of the week, but rather the way we treat “the least,” and among humans I can’t think of a more vulnerable group than that of the unborn. John Paul II may be wrong on the correct day of worship, but he is right, I believe, in defending the sanctity of human life, the most magnificent product of God’s creation. He may be wrong on the state of the dead, but he is right about the state of the living! For over a century and a half we have fearlessly defended the sanctity of God’s Holy Time, but we are silent regarding the sanctity of human life. We have built and managed numerous medical institutions to “Make Man Whole.” It is high time that we do what is within our power and influence to “Keep the Baby Whole!”

H. The Many Faces of the Anti-Christ

Two millennia ago King Herod butchered the young babies in Bethlehem. Later on, several Roman Emperors murdered thousands of Christians. Then the Catholic Inquisition did their share during the Middle Ages. More recently, we had Hitler and Stalin, who annihilated innocent human beings by the millions. To top this, our generation is either butchering or poisoning the most innocent of all, the unborn. As you can see, the anti-Christ has many faces, and wears many masks. Somebody said: “In Germany, they came first for the communists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant. Finally they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Responses

  1. Book changes are nothing new. They were changing her books even when she was alive. Ever since James White died there had changes taken place behind back by the so-called committee of five. Who by the way rejected the original 30 Testimony to the Church . Why is the 3 different Great Controversies any Theres the 1884, 1888 and the 1911. Try read reading them and comparing.

    Folks you need to read and study for yourself to see if these things are true. Not what the General Corporation of the 7th Day adventist tell or what your pastor in the pulpit tells you. They went to the cemetery (seminary) for the education to teach dead people half truths and false doctrines. The is no resurrection from thecemetery (seminary).

    Satan thru his jesuit agents have infiltrated the church even since sister Whites time. TIME HAS COME FOLKS TO BE PREPARED TO GIVE THE LOUD CRY (WHICH BY THE WAY WAS OMITED FROM 1911 GREAT CONTROVERSY). IF THE CHURCH WAS DOING IT’S JOB CHRIST WOULD HAVE COME BY NOW WOULD HE NOT.

    • I have a milder view of this issue. I believe that Ellen White would have made some changes in the original text before republishing her book almost a century after its first publication. Times have changed and the message must be adapted to the circumstances.

      This method of responding to altered circumstances is rooted in the way God has dealt with people and organizations. Read the story of King Ahab, King David, King Nebuchadnezzar, and many others. When people sinned, the Lord punished them but when they showed signs of contrition and repentance God altered his attitude towards them.

      We must do the same. The Catholic Church is not the same as it was when the Inquisition was in full force, and we must give credit whenever credit is due. Rome has given an example to us Adventist on the issue of abortion, for example, and I am sure that God has noticed this. We must be fair and consider the present circumstances instead of simply focusing on the past and the expected or predicted future behavior of people.

      • I totally do not understand your rationale that Mrs. White would have changed her “revelation”. What possible justification would there be for her to change divine truth? The very notion that she would feel qualified to alter or delete words that were given to her with great specificity (according to her) and that she recorded exactly as revealed is heretical to say the least. What other options might there be for altering or deleting her words. Let’s see…….inaccuracy comes to mind, but I may be wrong.

      • summertimeprofessor,

        Can you cite the statement you are responding to? Please, provide the quotation in question to enable me to respond adequately. I read the article in question, but can’t figure out what you are referring to.

        Nic Samojluk

      • While I would agree that what Ellen White presented in The Great Controversy is all still true, were Ellen White alive, she would undoubtedly change the way she presented things. Though Rome is just as ambitious for world control, as Malachi Martin told us a few years ago, we must relate to her changing methods. However, HOW one presents a topic must be adjusted to the audience who receives it. The Spanish GC has material not in the English GC. The 1884 “GC” (Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 4), changed a bit in GC88 and then in the revision of GC (1911). Words like “Romish” were changed to avoid prejudice. For a detailed list of changes, see Arthur L. White, “W. W. Prescott and the 1911 Edition of The Great Controversy” at http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/GC-Prescott.html.

        Kevin L. Morgan

      • Kevin,

        Minor changes do not bother me. Changes were made to the original material Ellen was writing while she was still alive and she in most cases did approve of them. An author has the right to clarify what she/he has produced in the past. I do not believe that inspiration is equivalent to dictation.

        Nic Samojluk

  2. NIc I appreciate your perspective. There is much logic in the way you defend it. I too am appalled that the most dangerous place in America has become the womb but would try to enlighten you to the dialectic that is contributed to when the truth is viewed as ours and thus ours to tweak. Truth is the core source of accounting and accountability is it not? If opinion becomes the dominant source of logic then anyone’s truth is just as true as anyone else’s’ and thus truth evaporates.
    Abortion itself is the result of what happens when opinions rule rather than a Standard outside of us that we cannot access only consult. Fact is the egregiousness of such is “born” (pun intended) from our creator and His knowing us intimately and innately. What could be more prideful than to propose that our sexual gratification supersedes the agape love that He exhibits that sources life itself?
    So, as to the relationship that life plays to doctrines of eschatology I think we should let the two stand separately.
    People are born everyday and new souls succumb to death or are set aside for everlasting life. The role we play to being Kingdom oriented and to be finished bringing the last soul into that Kingdom is relevant to truths that will never change. Abortion is helping finish the “work” via the destruction of minds via the dialectic more than the use of crushing forceps. Exposing the unmoving and everlasting truths is all we can do. Time is God’s and we are only accountable for the amount given to us. GaryK

  3. God holds us responsible for sounding the trumpet. Once we have done this, we need to leave the results to him. When Samuel was offended because the people asked for a king, the Lord said to him: They have not rejects you, but rather me. When our message based on a clear “thus said the Lord” is rejected, we should not feel that the rejection is directed at us, but rather towards the Lord.

  4. looks like olde Ellen White is no longer viewed as the Adventists pope as before since times and views have changed.

    • Pope? (this word is misplaced and is meaningless in this connotation as we never gave her god status)

  5. Many Adventists still consider her writings as the final and infallible interpretation of biblical truth. Others study the Bible in order to discover what it really says about dogma.

    • Truth is truth and seeking what is absolute according to the Bible is a journey that is enhanced by many authors who studied it a lot more than you or I. The worst sin according to Jesus seemed to be religious pretenses. Such pretenses can be made to fit a variety of dogmas.

  6. I am currently reading The Great Controversy by E. G. White as I am not the kind that takes someone elses word for what it really is.

    Also I downloaded the research by Walter Rea on the Great Controversy to see what the critiques really are. He states pages 28-36 are material condensed frm Josephus, while chapters 2 & 3 are from J.N.Andrews book History of the Sabbath.

    I need to go back and read Josephus on the destruction of Jerusalem and acquire J. N. Andrews book.

    If these records match the GC, then I can believe more fully that Ellen White borrowed extensively from other authors, that she was WRONG in saying what she wrote was from her visions of God.

    Granted most Adventists are taught early in life, NOT TO QUESTION anything that they are told is from God fearing that God will cause them their eternal salvation.

  7. My view about Ellen White writings has changed over the years. I still have her books and I do regard her writings with respect, but I no longer consider them to be above the Bible. She did borrow extensively from other authors. The problem is that she seems to have tried to deny such dependency on what others had written.

    • Adventlife said:
      “The problem is that she seems to have tried to deny such dependency on what others had written.”

      It is easy to state something like this but I challenge this statement. I do not see the need for her to be defensive when there were no Walter Reas while she was alive trying to undermine her work. I also think that it is important to realize that truth itself is really not something that any of us ever own. That we get so defensive about its ownership shows the degree to which truth itself has become more about us and less about God. When anyone’s truth is as good as anyone else’s’ does it not then evaporate?
      A good read on this subject is: Defending The Spirit of Prophecy by Vance Ferrell.

    • I think, unfortunately, that the critics have mis-shaped the debate regard any denials. The description of her usage of sources in GC is a good match for what she has done. Using historical source materials does not diminish inspiration, otherwise we have a problem with various inspired historical works in Sacred Writ. Look for my book on this topic. It will be out early this year. God bless.

      Kevin L. Morgan

  8. I am reading the Great Controversy on my kindle and taking notes What I see her belief that the Waldensians were Sabbath keepers but I doubt that as those who survived became part of the Reformation movement in the 6th century. My Wikipedia claims the Waldensians started in 1170 in Lyons France. The Waldensian church today is a Calvinist church, some even joined the Presbyterian church calling themsleves the Waldensian Presbyterian chruch. in the United States. She also claims Columba of Iono fame was a Sabbaterians, but there are no records of that being the case.

    I conclude that Ellen simply was a con-artist that found a means to make money on her books by using the works of other authors.

    • Con artist? Pretty preposterous Lee. Ellen White wrote what she wrote because the men, even in her day, had abrogated their masculinity and did not have the courage to tell it straight. Wiki?! Wikipedia is the dialectic in the cloud and has made anyones truth about as good as anyone else’s. When that happens truth evaporates because we would all rather that is was all good. (when it is, immorality itself is good)

    • Pretty obvious where you are drawing your thoughts from Mr. Jensen.
      Why all this attempt to discredit this lady of God.
      You scholars, wanna’ be experts and amateur’s spend your time unwisely rather than working in our God’s service. It’s souls we are to plant the seeds with not edit and audit others writings. If you don’t beleive Mrs. White’s writings then leave them alone and follow the Bible . . . Again, she said, if there is a question or difference follow the Bible not my writings!

      Roger Slonaker

      • Let’s face the known facts from reputable historians. We have nothing to indicate that the Waldensians were Sabbath keepers. Their descendents established churches in North and South America; some becoming the Waldensian Presbyterian church or part of the Reform- Calvinist movement.

        Olde Ellen was simply one that pitched observance of the Old Testament Sabbath despite the fact that there is virtually not even a hint in the New Testament that Christians need observe the Sabbath.

        Yes, Ellen has been discredited by many many many investigators either from a historical or theological standpoint. In my opinion, she was a master con-artist that found a way to make a few bucks off the writings of other authors and the White Estate is continuing to suck it for whatever they can get out of it.

        In Christ (and there is no better place to be), lee jensen

      • Yes, Roger our goal should be the salvation of souls and that is why I am a 30 year veteran of a Bible distribution society. However, there is far too many things in the writings of ellen white that simply do not ring true and her theology is one that can only lead one into legalism.

      • Are you thinking about the Ellen White before 1988 or after?

    • I do agree that Ellen White did borrow a lot of material from other authors, but labeling her as a con artist is stretching the point, I believe. Thousands of people were led to Christ thanks to her books. She was God’s instrument for the salvation of souls, but all human instruments are fallible. I do not reject King David’s Psalms simply because his behavior on occasion was far from perfect.

      • Yes, God can use even the Devil for His glory. Did He use Ellen White for His glory. I believe so since many of her writings were from godly people.

        Was she a conartist? Only by definition.

  9. My fellow Seventh-Day Adventists, I am but a simple man of 74 years and have heard and seen much in my day but am I to understand that the words written by our prophet, Ellen White, words from our Lord Jesus Christ are to be altered and smoothed-over to now be made acceptable to the Catholic Church?

    I am appalled and withdraw my respect for the General Conference of Seventh-Day-Advents and those who support the changes in the book,
    the Great Controversy

    Not only the ‘change’ but the diversion and dissention being caused by this very action is playing into Satan’s hands.

    Ellen White made if perfectly clear that the Bible is to be the final word not hers!

    If we think that by softening our words or cajoling with The Catholic Church will change ‘The End-Times’ then we are truly fools and I want no part in this
    hearcy and treasonus-act.

    I am destroying the ‘new-version’ of the Great Controversy and reverting back to the ‘original-version’ by Mrs. White.

    I wish you the best my ‘watered-down’ SDA friends!

    Roger Slonaker
    7747 Farmsbury Drive
    Reynoldsbug, OH 43068
    (616) 450-5421

    • Roger, there is much imperfection in the SDA church that is a result of the present day watering down that happens when we teach around the truth rather than through it.. ( to preserve peoples “feelings” ). There are many pastors who do not even know that they are teaching a watered down truth because the goal has changed from presenting truth to not offending anyone.
      Interesting though that when truth is gone people would actually rather be offended than convicted.
      What then happens at even the highest levels is a pretense or an elusion and little courage remains. Why is it that there is no outcry from the pulpit concerning the hot button, politically charged issues of our day? Abortion, sex before marriage, porn, homosexuality. We are all silent. Its all good. There is no courage and every pastor is more concerned about their 501 C3 than about the unadulterated truth.
      There is little masculinity when it is all feelings and little truth. That is not to say that there is a balance to be achieved, but there is a femininity that is pervasive that has a tendency to evade distinctions and thus conviction itself makes way for everyone to simply be offended.
      But take heart! The good news is that because this has been prophesied it is indication that we are approaching the earth’s final conflict. So, be the courage that you see lacking around you. Love is what you do in spite of what you feel. Lift up the trumpet and LOUD LET IT RING! JESUS S COMING AGAIN! GK

      • opps BIG mistake in my reply to Roger! I said no outcry. I did once hear a local SDA who is not a pastor touch on sex before marriage.. and that man teaches a politically incorrect sermon each time he does. He is not a pastor. tho’. GK

  10. Most serious Adventist Scholars who have investigated this subject seem to agree that Ellen White borrowed heavily from other authors. They also agree that Mrs. White did not want others to know this fact.

    Some years ago, our Adventist Review published a short statement attributed to Mrs. White’s grandson—if my memory serves me right—stating the Ellen did admit to him that she had borrowed from other authors; that God had given her the ability to select from others material that reflected the truths revealed to her in vision, but that she did not want people to know this.

    Unfortunately, my older computer crashed and I can’[t find this in my new laptop. I thought that I had backed up all the important document I had in my file, but I can’t find this one.

  11. Reblogged this on Earnestly contending for the Faith. and commented:
    Another Seventh-Day Adventist willing to ask penetrating questions about their own churches inconsistency.

    • I have decided to read The Great Controversy as a result of what is happening in the SDA hierarchy but am not surprised that some of what is in the book is totally false or at best conjecture.

      Were the Waldensians Sabbath keepers? Doubtful as their survivors today are not and many of their ancestors adopted Calvinism.

    • For a far more in depth discussion of Adventism by those who are Adventists and former Adventists please join us at http://www.carm.org forum.

  12. Were the Waldensians Sabbath keepers as EllenWhite claims in her book the Great Controversy?

    The answer is an unqualified NO. Suggest that if anyone wants to examine the facts to review the following websites.

    http://www.reformedreader.org/history/wylie/toc.htm

    http://exadventist.com/Home/Articles/waldensians/tabid/449/Default.aspx

    It is no wonder that so many that have done the research have seen that much of Ellen White wrote is truly a distortion of History.

    Did her angel lie to her, or was she a good storyteller that was able to hoodwink those that are truly naive?

    • I apologize for taking this long to approve this posting made by you. I did not see it until this morning.

      Nic

  13. I’d like to ask Lee Jensen 1 simple question; Were all the relatives of King David, a man after God’s own heart, faithful followers of the GOD of Israel? Of course not! Are all descendants of the Waldensians Sabbath keepers…..?

    • Were all the Waldensians Sabbath keepers? Viewing the evidence that we have we can only conclude that none of them were Sabbath keepers. The day they had communal worship was on the Lord’s Day, Sundays. Ellen White was just PLAIN WRONG!

      • That is a good question. The answer depends on whose authority you rely on. If you believe that Ellen White was infallible in all the many pages she borrowed from other authors, then the issue is settled for you; but if you think that she was a flawed human being like many other inspired authors, then you need to do your own research. Here is a sample of two opposing opinions:

        “June 19, 2006
        Dear Brothers,

        I am Andras Szalai, director of an evangelical apologetics research center in Hungary and I need your help -professional help of a Waldesian theologian – in a certain research project.
        It’s about the Seventh-day Adventist Church which claims that Waldesians have kept the law of the Sabbath. As far as I know, it is not true, but I’d like to know your opinion. If Waldesians have ever kept the Sabbath, please give me historical sources.

        Andras Szalai
        Apologia Research Center (CFAR Hungary)
        Pf. 22, 1576 Budapest. Hungary
        http://www.apologia.hu, http://www.thecenters.org

        June 21, 2006
        Dear Brother Andras,

        My name is Thomas Soggin, a Waldensian Minister in Bergamo (North Italy), in charge – by our Board, the Tavola Valdese – to answer to your letter. …

        Therefore, the Waldensians did not keep the Sabbath (in the sense of Saturday instead of Sunday) and were not guardians of the “Sabbath Truth” as somebody calls it. The Waldensians never followed the Seventh-day Adventist’s Sabbath but they followed more Paul in Romans 14,5-8.

        We can therefore say very clearly that the Waldensians were not Seventh-day Sabbath keepers and they were not persecuted for keeping Saturday as the Sabbath!”

        More: http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/studies/waldenses.html

        “Robinson, in the History of Baptism, says, “They were called Sabbati and Sabbatati, so named from the Hebrew word Sabbath, because they kept Saturday for the Lord’s day.”

        Jones, in his Church History, says that because they would not observe saints’ days, they were falsely supposed to neglect the Sabbath also.

        A commissioner of Charles XII, of France, reported that he found among them none of the ceremonies, images, or signs, of the Romish Church, much less the crimes with which they were charged; on the contrary they kept the Sabbath-day, observed the ordinance of baptism according to the primitive church, and instructed their children in the articles of the Christian faith and commandments of God.”

        More: http://www.writtentreasures.org/html/waldenses.html

        Take your pick! For me this is a dead issue, because the Sabbath is clearly identified as the seventh day of the week. If we are free to violate the Fourth Commandment, then logic tells me that we are also free to violate the one which forbids murder, adultery, and theft.

      • I would put more stock in those of the Waldensian church today that clearly knows their own history than I would in other sources.

        While moral law is inherent in the very nature of man, created in God’s image, I do not see the observance of a day as being a moral law. While murder, adultery, thief, etc. are listed as sins in 3 separate places in the New Testament, I can find nothing that tells us that non-observance of the Sabbath is a sin.

        Romans 2:14 speaks of the Gentiles as doing what the law required by nature and in doing that they did not have the written law. But they did not observe the Sabbath. Since keeping the sabbath is definitely learned behavior, we can surmise that such is not inherent in man’s nature, thus not a moral law.
        The last reason I would have is that if something were essential in our Christian walk, we would certainly see something of a command for it in the New Covenant, especially in the Epistles but we do not. So observance of the OT sabbath is problematic.

      • I believe that the argument from silence is a weak one. Otherwise, we should be free to buy a few slaves and marry a few wives.

        If silence is important, then I would argue that, since the Christian church was born among the Jews, dropping Sabbath observance by Christians would have been recorded in the New Testament.

      • The argument from silence regarding slavery is really not a good one since Scripture does imply that we are commanded to have a positive relationship to others (Romans 13:9-10)

      • Do not forget that Paul sent Onesimus, a slave, back to his master. Contrast this with what Ellen White wrote about this. The Bible is silent regarding slavery and polygamy, yet we condemn both on moral grounds.

        I conclude from this that the New Testament silence about the Sabbath is irrelevant concerning the validity and permanence of the Sabbath Commandment which was enshrined in the Decalogue and written by God’s finger. Both Jesus and his disciples did honor the sanctity of the Fourth Commandment.

      • Basing any essential doctrine on silence brings with it a very high risk of creating a non-biblical doctrine.

        I know Adventist impose a very different interpretation on Romans 14:5-6 but I believe it says what it says. If it were to say what Adventism wants it to say, then most certainly the Holy Spirit who had Scripture penned would not have misled us.

        As such observance of a day, or what we eat is something that is non-essential to our faith and walk. So we really need to respect other people convictions on these matters.

      • Here is a good explanation of the passage found in Romans 14:

        “Paul is writing to both Jewish and Gentile converts at Rome. He advised them to accept those who were weak in the faith (Rom. 14:1), and to not dispute with them over insignificant matters, nor sit in judgment of them. Some of these newly converted Gentiles, being weak in the faith, were vegetarians and refused to eat meats.

        The reason they did not eat meat is explained in I Corinthians 8. Most meat available for purchase at the market had been previously offered to idols at pagan temples. Therefore, some, with conscience of the idol, ate it “as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But meat commends us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse” (vs. 7-8). Some of the converts at Rome, who had given up idolatry, were Gentiles. Still being superstitious, they thought the idol was something real. …

        Notice! Not only were there weak converts who avoided eating meat offered to idols, but there were others who customarily abstained from particular foods. They semi-fasted on certain particular days. Still others refused to practice a semi-fast or abstain from foods, but regarded every day in the same way!

        A number of Jews of that time would often hold a semi-fast twice in the week (Luke 18:12). Some would also fast during the fifth and seventh months (Zech. 7:4-7). They were divided as to exactly when to fast. The Gentile converts were also divided as to what days to abstain from certain foods. Because of the differing backgrounds of these people, they could not agree on which days to do this. There were divisions in the congregation. Jesus taught us that fasting is something that is done without making it obvious to others (Matt. 6:16). It is a personal matter, between an individual and God.

        The subject of this question surrounded the matter of abstinence on particular days—upon which days many voluntarily abstained from certain foods. It did not involve whether or not to keep pagan holidays or God’s Holy Days.”

        More: http://rcg.org/questions/p085.a.html

    • Who are you Lee Jensen that you cintinually attack Ellen White and the Seventh-Day Adventist Church? Is it your mission to distract and cause many to doubt and loose faith? Who is your Mater, Lee Jensen? Wouldn’t it much wiser to spend productive time studying God’s Word rather than negative and loss time attacking others?

      Again, I challenge and ask you, ‘what is your mission & intent,’ Lee Jensen?

      Roger Slonaker

  14. to Roger S.
    Yes, I can see that there are those that are very sensitive when it comes to Ellen White – I found much the same in dialogues with Mormon relatives. Such distinctive belief of either is very hard to defend.

    My purpose is to view interpretations of scripture from as many vantage points as is possible. In that I gain a much deeper understanding of doctrine as well as the history of the Church.

    I believe also that in doing studies in Adventism Mormonism, and other cults, I gain much in being able to defend that faith that has once and forever been deliever to the saints – Jude 3. And I can see that neither Adventism or Moronism really reflects that faith.

    Hope that the eyes of your heart will be opened to the truth of the Gospel.

    • Mr. Jensen . . Why do you persist in referring to the SDA Church as a cult as we consistently follow the scriptures. It is not my place to judge or critise the Mormon, Catholic or any other religon but to follow Jesus Christ our Savior. After all, we who follow Christ are considered Saints!

      There is only one way to correctly interpret the scriptures my friend and that is by prayerfully seeking understanding from the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:45)

      And God, The Holy Spirit is the author (2-Peter 1:19-20) All scripture is ‘God breathed’ (2-Timothy 3:16)

      And not one jot or tittle is to be changed in the Bible.
      (Deuteronomy 4:2) (Matthew 24:45) (Mark 13:31) (Revelation 22:18-19)

      I pray that God will open your eyes to the truths of Scriptures, my friend!

      Roger Slonaker

  15. thanks for the interpretation by the Restored Church of God – a splinter group that came about as a result of the Worldwide Church of God founded by the infamous Herbert W. Armstrong. I will study it as well as its critiques.

  16. a good reference on Romans 14 which disputes the ipreferred interpretation of the Restored Church of God is at http://grandoldbook.com/Romans_14_Outline_Study.pdf

    • If you read Romans 14:1-6 you will probably agree with me that the context is food. Some Christian converts refused to partake of meat products because a portion of said meat had been offered to idols. It seems that said offering of meat to idols took place on certain days, and said Christians did abstain from consuming meat on such days. Others went to the extreme of embracing vegetarianism. I do not think that this passage has any connection with the observance of the Jewish Sabbath.

      • While I highly respect your preferred interpretation of Romans 14 as it fits in with your denominational viewpoint, I would believe that if there was a problem concerning food and the days of fasting as practiced by certain sects in Rome, that we would see something of that in the text. The Holy Spirit would have had it penned differently.

        While your interpretation may indeed be correct, we must bear in mind that Scripture must be interpreted by scripture especially if something is not explicit. And I do not see anything in Scripture elsewhere that even hints that we should observe certain days or restrict what we may eat (cf: Acts 15:19, Matthew 15:17f, Mark 7:19f, Col. 2:14f)

        Romans 14 admonished us not to judge others on the freedom we have in Christ. But in that I see nothing here in Romans 14 or elsewhere that mandates observance of laws or commands that are uniquely Jewish. (se Gal. 2:4; 5:1)

        ESV Study Bible notes on Romans 14 “Unlike the other 9 commandments, (Exodus 20), the Sabbath commandment seems to have been part of the ‘ceremonial laws’ of the Mosaic covenant, like the dietary laws and the laws about sacifices, all of which are no longer binding on New Covenant believers (see also Gal. 4:10, Col. 2:16-17). However, it is still wise to take regular times of rest from work, and regular times of worship are commanded for Christians (Hebr. 10:24-25; cf. Acts 10:7).”

        While the view as expressed by your denominations is a minority view, I believe it important that we examine the views of those the Lord has given His church throughout the ages. I believe the view that Romans 14 tells us that neither food nor the observance of days are things that are optional and depends upon the believers convictions.

        We have to realize there was a conflict in the early church between jewish and Gentile Christians, however, the Roman Church was predominantly Gentile and the Epistle to the Romans was written to tell Gentiles that they needed not observe things that were inherently Jewish.

      • You are suggesting that the Sabbath observance was part of the dietary instruction given to Israel in the Old Testament. This makes no logical sense to me. If your theory is correct, then God would have placed the same in Leviticus 11 instead of Exodus 20.

        The Lord included the Sabbath as one of the Ten Commandments and gave two reasons for giving the Sabbath to men: As a memorial of his act of creation, and as a reminder of Israel’s liberation from slavery. Notice that this is not an argument based on silence but rather on two explicit inspired statements found in the Bible. The Ten Commandments were placed inside the Ark of Covenant, while the books containing the dietrary laws outside of the sacred ark.

        The Sabbath has nothing to do with diet. The story of creation found in Genesis one sets apart the Sabbath as a special day given to humanity as a reminder of God creative work and Jesus stated that the Sabbath was made for men. And do not forget that God set aside the Sabbath as a day of rest thousands of years before the existence of the Jewish nation. This means that the Sabbath was given for all humanity.

        The texts found in Romans 14 must be taken within its proper context!

      • The Sabbath was given only to the nation of Israel as a sign of the covenant God made with them.

        Exodus 31:13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.

        If the sign of the Old Sinatic covenant were applicable to the church we most certainly would see at least a hint of a command for Christian to observe it either in the Epistles or taught in the early church but we do not.

        While one can find a reason based upon some rationale to observe the OT Sabbath there is nothing in the New Covenant that commands or even recommends it to the church. And that being the case, there is really no other conclusion that can be made except that the Sabbath, like the dietary laws, were optional and certainly not essential to the Christian walk.

        Early Jewish Christians continued in the Mosaic customs and traditions and allowances had to be made for them. But as the leadership by the mid second century the leadership has passed to Gentile Christians who never observed the Sabbath or any laws/commands that were strictly Jewish in nature.

        I could really not care what you believe about the Sabbath or the dietary laws as the focus of our faith should be on Jesus, Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

        If all you have is religion and not a relationship with the living Lord, then all you really have is a ethical religious philosophy useless in the life to come. Even the Apostle Paul believed” touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless” but counted all that as so much garbage and viewed “everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead”. Philippians 3.

        The righteousness of the Christian is in Christ; not in the law which can only reveal his sin and condemn him.

      • I am surprised that you, having rejected the argument from silence in the New Testament about the weekly Sabbath in a previous comments by you, are now repeating the same argument from silence.

        In order to understand the passage found in Romans 14, we need to be careful about the context. What kind of days did Paul have in mind in verse 5, for ecample? Here is what John Wesley had to say about this:

        “Wesley’s Explanatory Notes
        14:5 One day above another – As new moons, and other Jewish festivals. Let every man be fully persuaded – That a thing is lawful, before he does it.”

        Was Paul talking about the weekly Sabbath which was enshrined in the Decalogue by God himself and written with his own finger? I do not think so. Notice that Wesley believe that this was a reference to the common Jewish festivals and not to the weekly Sabbath.

        And here is the opinion of the scholarly and highly esteemed Matthew Henry Commentary:

        “Matthew Henry Commentary

        Verses 6-21 We have in this chapter,I. An account of the unhappy contention which had broken out in the Christian church. Our Master had foretold that offences would come; and, it seems, so they did, for want of that wisdom and love which would have prevented discord, and kept up union among them.1. There was a difference among them about the distinction of meats and days; these are the two things specified. There might be other similar occasions of difference, while these made the most noise, and were most taken notice of. The case was this: The members of the Christian church at Rome were some of them originally Gentiles, and others of them Jews. We find Jews at Rome believing, Acts. 28:24 .

        Now those that had been Jews were trained up in the observance of the ceremonial appointments touching meats and days. This, which had been bred in the bone with them, could hardly be got out of the flesh, even after they turned Christians; especially with some of them, who were not easily weaned from what they had long been wedded to. They were not well instructed touching the cancelling of the ceremonial law by the death of Christ, and therefore retained the ceremonial institutions, and practised accordingly; while other Christians that understood themselves better, and knew their Christian liberty, made no such difference.

        More: http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/romans/14.html

        Notice the specific reference to the “ceremonial appointments touching meats and days.” The Sabbath which God created and blessed during the creagtion week was not part of the “ceremonial appointments touching meats and days.” You don’t find any reference to the weekly Sabbath in Leviticus 11, but rather as one of the Ten Commandments which was placed by order of God inside the Ark of the Covenant and not outside the Ark as the other books written by Moses.

  17. My brother in CHRIST, it appears we have a bit of misunderstanding here, My initial reason for checking out your site, was to ascertain whether or not there was any truth to an allegation that the Vatican was preparing to take the Seventh Day Adventist Church to court over the publication & distribution of the book, The Great Controversy. Failing to find any such confirmation/denunciation of same, I stuck around just to see what you site offered & felt compelled to respond to a comment Lee Jensen had made, discrediting Sis. Ellen G. White. I had no intentions of having you forwarding all these emails to me. I therefore, respectfully ask that you cease sending me same, forth with! Thanks!

  18. To: Roger Slonaker -

    Dr. Bacchiocchi has probably done more research on the Sabbath than any living human. Did he find evidence that some of the Waldenses observed the Sabbath?
    “I spent several hours searching for an answer in the two scholarly volumes Storia dei Valdesi–(History of the Waldenses), authored by Amedeo Molnar and Augusto Hugon. These two books were published in 1974 by the Claudiana, which is the official Italian Waldensian publishing house. They are regarded as the most comprehensive history of the Waldenses. To my regret I found no allusion whatsoever to Sabbathkeeping among the Waldenses.”

    • Mr. Jensen,

      I was raised a Methodist until I was 15 years old when my family became Seventh-Day Adventists so I have no ‘from birth Adventist position,’ rather I accepted on my own the Adventist faith. I can say that my Sunday School teacher was a wonderful Christian lady and I expect to see her in heaven and on the New Earth. She taught me the books of the Bible and I certainly love her dearly.

      • You apparently have more of a religious upbringing than I had. I was born and raised on an Iowa farm to a family that went to church twice a year and for weddings and funerals. Most of my early religious education came from a SDA neighbor.

        It was not until I got to college that I started to go to church on my own.

        It was during my Junior year that Christ came into my life and changed totally the direction of my life. It was an experience that I will never forget; over 50 years ago. As someone that had a rather dramatic conversion (in the privacy of my bedroom one night), I became an avid Bible student having read the Bible in 15 different versions – I tried to read a different version every year as well as taking college level courses in religion and theology up through first year Greek.

        Not being raised in any particular denomination, and since I moved around the country in my job, I was active in different denominations. My ministry for the past 30 years has been with the Gideons International- a ministry in which I have seen many whose lives have been transformed by the Word of God.

      • Since you have experienced the power of God in your life, I wonder why you seem to be so critical of the books written by Ellen White which have been instrumental in the conversion experience of thousands of people who love the Lord as you do. Should you not praise the Lord insgtead for the influence of her life and ministry? Were it not for her, there would be no thousands of medical institutions, schools, and churches which have been a blessing for thousands around the world.

  19. Thank you again for your comments, but you open the door to things overlooked by many.

    What exactly was Wesley view of the Sabbath?

    From On the Sabbath by John Wesley http://www.fwponline.cc/v11n1/v11n1jwesley.html

    “I dispute not here whether or no this command was given to Adam, nor whether it was observed before Moses; nor yet whether we are to keep the sabbath upon the seventh day, as was the practice of the Jews, or on the first day of the week, according to the usage of the Christian Church from our Lord’s resurrection to this day. My present inquiry is only this: What authority commands us to keep one day in seven holy? And what were the chief ends for which this command was given?”

    There was an attempt by the Reformers and their immediate successors to make the Lord’s Day, Sunday, the Sabbath. According to the Westminster Confessions, they believed the Sabbath had been transferred by
    Christ from the 7th Day to the 1st Day. Sabbaterians reacted very negatively to that belief and for very good reasons.

    Westminster Confession of Faith XXI.7. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in his Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him: which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week, which, in Scripture, is called the Lord’s Day, and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath .

    Matthew Henry held much the same viewpoint as did the Puritans, D.L. Moody and others.

    Matthew Henry Commentary: The Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath. In the kingdom of the Redeemer, the Sabbath day is to be turned into a Lord’s day; the property of it is, in some respects, to be altered, and it is to be observed chiefly in honour of the Redeemer, as it had been before in honour of the Creator, Jer. 16:14, 15. In token of this, it shall not only have a new name, the Lord’s day (yet not forgetting the old, for it is a Sabbath of rest still) but shall be transferred to a new day, the first day of the week.”

    I disagree with that viewpoint that the Sabbath was transferred to the Lord’s Day, as we can find nothing in the New Covenant that mandates the observance of any day of the week.

    The viewpoint that we do not find

    The fact that the 10 commandments being the covenant God made only with Israel. The 10 commandments is the covenant God made with Israel.

    Deuteronomy 4:13De 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.

    And that ten commandment covenant was made only with Israel.

    Deuteronomy 5:2-3 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did the LORD make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today.

    The fact that the 10 commandments written by God does not negate what else God may have spoken and we should not magnify even one iota of it over another.

    In Leviticus 11:1 And the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth.

    The problem here is that the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron concerning foods but He did not say the same thing to the Church. In the New Covenant we hear Jesus telling His disciples that one does not defile oneself by food as what defiles a person is what comes out of the heart. Matthew 15:17f, Mark 7:19f.

    • You quoted the following:

      “Westminster Confession of Faith XXI.7. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in his Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him: which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week, which, in Scripture, is called the Lord’s Day, and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.”

      Your comment was:

      “I disagree with that viewpoint that the Sabbath was transferred to the Lord’s Day, as we can find nothing in the New Covenant that mandates the observance of any day of the week.”

      And then you added:

      “And that ten commandment covenant was made only with Israel.”

      You are forgetting that God predicted that according to Scripture we are the spiritual Israel and heirs to the promises made to Abraham and his posterity. The reason given to Israel in Exodus 20 for keeping the Sabbath is because God created the heavens and the earth in seven days and then he blessed the seventh day. The Sabbath was designed to be a reminder of our Creator.

      There is no record in Scripture of God ever blessing any other day of the week. And in Isaiah 66 we find a prediction that the Sabbath will be kept in the new earth. Likewise, there is no record in Scripture that God transferred the Sabbath blessings from the Seventh day go the first day of the week.

      When Jesus stated that the “Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath” he was not referring to Sunday but rather to Saturday, the day he had blessed when he created the heavens and the earth recorded in Genesis 2.

      • Your comment – The reason given to Israel in Exodus 20 for keeping the Sabbath is because God created the heavens and the earth in seven days and then he blessed the seventh day. The Sabbath was designed to be a reminder of our Creator.

        The real reason God gave Israel the Sabbath is expressed in the following verse.

        Deuteronomy 5:15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

        If you are going to observe the Sabbath for any reason you need to do so in accordance to the regulations specified in scripture and light no fire in your home on the sabbath, do not travel to any distance, etc. etc. etc.

        If you place yourself under the law then you are under a curse if you do not obey all of it all the time.

        Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

        And no one obeys all law all the time.

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “The real reason God gave Israel the Sabbath is expressed in the following verse. Deuteronomy 5:15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.”

        Correct! One hundred percent correct. That was one of the reasons God gave the Sabbath to the Israelites, but the main reason we need to keep the Sabbath holy is given in Genesis 2. God blessed the seventh day of the week thousands of years before the appearance of the first Jew on earth. The Sabbath was blessed for the sake of the human race—not merely the Jews.

        If you are not observing the Sabbath as a special day, you are missing the blessing that comes with it. It is equivalent to rejecting a special gift from somebody who loves you more than you love yourself.

        You also wrote: “If you are going to observe the Sabbath for any reason you need to do so in accordance to the regulations specified in scripture and light no fire in your home on the Sabbath, do not travel to any distance, etc. etc. etc.”

        I suspect you probably know why the Israelites were instructed not to light a fire in the desert. Don’t you? The matches had not been invented yet, and lighting a fire was done the hard way: by rubbing sticks together, or strking stone against another stone. Have you ever tried lighting a fire that way. It is hard work.

        This why in those times people always tried to keep the fire going non-stop once the fire was started. Now regarding travel, can you tell me what was the maximum distance the Israelites were allowed to travel on the Sabbath day? Can you give me the biblical text without citing the Talmud of other Jewish tradition?

        Then you said: “If you place yourself under the law then you are under a curse if you do not obey all of it all the time.”

        You mean that if I refrain from taking the name of God in vain, from murdering, from stealing, and from fornicating that I will be under a curse? Wow! What a discovery. So I need to engage in willful sin if I want to be free from said alleged curse? Are you serious?

        The you cited the following Bible text in support of your strange doctrine: “Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

        Do you really want to know what Paul is saying in that text? He says that I cannot rely on any good deed I do for salvation, because salvation is a gift from God. Repentance is the work of the Holy Spirit, and forgiveness is also a gift from above. And to top this, my willingness to obey God’s commands is also a gift from heaven. It is the work of God’s Spirit in our hearts.

        It is a loving response generated by God. If you love God, you will not willingly do what hurts his feeling and what hurts others and yourself.

        And you ended with: “And no one obeys all law all the time.”

        True, this is why John wrote in his first epistle that the followers of Jesus do not engage in habitual sins, but if they fail we have Jesus ready to cleanse us and forgive us our trespasses.

      • To Roger Slonaker -

        I believe I have already met your challenge as I have just finished reading the Great Controversy and will write a critique on Amazon.com on it. It is basically a religious novel much on the same category as the Left Behind series by La Haye and Jenkins.

        Steps to Christ is another book that I have read but found doctrinal problems starting with chapter 4.

        Desire of the Ages is a book that my mother used to read to me while I was a child. I also have it in my library and plan to read it in its entirely as time permits.

        And as well as the ones you mentioned, I have read much of Healthful Living by White – a book that contains much [nonsense].

        Having been employed as a research analyst for the government for 24 years, I have learned that one must also read the critiques – something you probably have not done with it comes either to Adventism or Ellen White.

      • I dook the liberty of replacing one adjective with the word [nonsense].

      • You wrote -And as well as the ones you mentioned, I have read much of Healthful Living by White – a book that contains much [nonsense].

        Exactly, but for many of us it is a good book for a few laughs. Much of her views reflected the contemporary thoughts on health that have been totally discarded in todays world. Much of her writings on health are truly nonsense, we will agree.

        “You place upon your tables butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children.” Healthful Living #928 Ellen White.

        What I would to ask you is whether her health views were from her visions from God or her accompanying angel?

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “Much of her writings on health are truly nonsense, we will agree.”

        No, we don’t agree! I simply replaced another adjective you used with the term “nonsense.” But I do not agree that much of her writings are truly nonsense. I believe that most of her writings do make a lot of sense, and I am a living testimony to that.

        I became a vegetarian half a century ago, and my health at 80 is better than when I was 30. My parents joined Adventism and dropped their appetite for liquor and tobacco. My uncle did not and died at the age of 50.

        You asked: “What I would like to ask you is whether her health views were from her visions from God or her accompanying angel?”

        I do not know the correct answer to your question. Some of the things she wrote were probably the result of her visionary experience. Other things she borrowed from others without acknowledging her sources—which she should have done!

        Was she perfect? No! Moses, King David, and Peter were not perfect either, but I still respect them for their contribution to my Christian faith.

      • What the ancients did is to maintain live coals as they traveled so they could ignite a fire when they needed it. In that way, they would not spend much time in preparing a fire to cook their food and provide for their warmth. Perhaps the prohibition in Exodus 35:3 really addressed the labor that may have gone into the preparation of a fire.

        To what extent many of these laws became known to the congregation as a whole and were obeyed is anyone’s guess. Since Joshua had to circumcised the Israelite males prior to crossing the Jordan indicates that many of these laws were not enforced.

        Obviously you do not understand what the scripture is teaching when it says one is under a curse if one relies on the works of the law. I suggest that you read it in its context -

        Gal. 3:10-14 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

        Note that it specifically states ‘who does not abide by ALL things written in the Book of the Law”. If you view James 2:10 it states if you do not fail in any of the law you are held accountable for all of it.

        James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

        Note that James is speaking here of both the 10 commandment (verse 11) as well as the sin of partiality (verse 9)

        What I would suggest to you is for you to study the doctrine of sanctification. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to make you Christ-like in all your behavior. That is accomplished as you abide in Him, and walk by His Spirit. In that you will learn to live by faith. And in that you will abhor anything that is sin or goes contrary to the will of God.

        Romans 1:17 17 For in it (the gospel) the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith (from start to finish), as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

        Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified (declared righteous) by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

        Our faith is not so much as only an ethical system but a relationship with the living Lord.

        Study the doctrine as it ties together all you need in understanding what the scripture teaches.

  20. I am currently reading Ellen White’s Great Controversy and should be done by the end of this day. It is easy to see where her publications are controversial. Some things concerning her history have been proven to be wrong. Thus the view that what she wrote was from her heaven-sent visions proves that while she did her studying, she was not infallible.

    There is a interesting write-up on the Great Controversy at http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/gc1.htm

    • Jesus said: “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” When we look at the results of Ellen White’s life, what do you see? Thousands of schools and hospitals and millions who have been reaping the benefits of her work and influence. Overall, the positive results of her work far outweigh the negative, I believe.

      She was not perfect, of course. She did make some mistakes, but what can we say about Moses, King David, and even Peter. They also made mistakes. Didn’t they? Let’s give her credit for the good things she has done.

      • Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” When we look at the results of Ellen White’s life, what do you see.

        What I really see is something that found a way to make money by paraphrasing the works of other authors. Ellen towards the end of her life had cooks, drivers, secretaries and other servants. She lived a very lavish lifestyle.

      • Lee,

        Yes, she had all that, and she had more than that: When she died, she had a debt of $ 25,000 dollars, which would be equivalent to a nice fortune today.

        It took many years to pay this enormous debt from the sale of her books. She had borrowed said money to sponsor one of the many mission projects she financed throughout her life.

        She had the habit of borrowing as much money as people were willing to lend to her in order to pay for the advancement of the Adventist mission.

        Have you tried to imitate her on this?

      • I’m not sure why Mr. Jensen continues the attack on Ellen White but I have a pretty good idea of who is behind it.

        I challenge you Mr. Jenson … Reserve further comments about Ellen White until you have read the books; “The Desire of Ages’ . . ‘Steps to Christ’ and ‘The Great Controversey’ … and then let us hear from you but until then you are using others negative writings about Ellen White, the very thing you have accused her of!

        Roger Slonaker

  21. Mr. Slonaker -

    While we may agree that the Holy Spirit will guide us in our understanding, He often directs us to those teachers that He has sent to His church.

    Eph. 4:11,14 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,… so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

    Unfortunately, it is an almost insurmountable barrier to overcome our denominational upbringing as all too often we read into the Scripture a different interpretation that what was intended.

    • Lee. You said: “Unfortunately, it is an almost insurmountable barrier to overcome our denominational upbringing as all too often we read into the Scripture a different interpretation that what was intended.”

      As one who definitely “surmounted” the evangelical positions you express I must say that this sentence speaks to a definite conundrum in terms of who leads whom and where.

      I left the church as soon as I went into the service at 19 and came back to the SDA belief 30 years later including a 6 year non-denominational hiatus.

      What became painfully missing from the non-denoms was distinction.
      Rightly dividing. The very need of a frontal lobe. In fact, it seems like distinctions for them have become the problem rather than the solution. And actually what does non-denominational actually mean? Non denominational is another way to say “indistinct distinction”. A place where I do not have to make stand or have to pick up my own cross and follow.

      So. I think the evidence is in .. you are not convincing anyone here. and you are not being convinced, so perhaps you can start your own blog so you can opine with out filling my inbox with the typical in-distinctions that lead straightway to universalism and make meaningless the words of Jesus in Matt. 5.19. Nic has turned your arguments quite on their head using the very scriptures you used and created for you a unsurmountable barrier that you have not even come close to rebutting.

      • garyroxene – sounds like your denominational background is very limited.

        I truly pity the poor blind and lost soul that thinks religion is the way, the truth and the life.

        The cults are always looking for those that seek religion instead of Christ. And most of them claim to be the only ones that proclaim the truth while all others are corrupted. Adventism fits very well into this category.

        What you need to do is to do your own homework and prayerfully study God’s Word especially that basic doctrine as was delivered once for all to His church Jude 3.

        Starting my own blog – something to consider but I do ok on Carm.org.

  22. To Roger Slonaker -

    I believe I have already met your challenge as I have just finished reading the Great Controversy and will write a critique on Amazon.com on it. It is basically a religious novel much on the same category as the Left Behind series by La Haye and Jenkins.

    Steps to Christ is another book that I have read but found doctrinal problems starting with chapter 4.

    Desire of the Ages is a book that my mother used to read to me while I was a child.I am familiar with much of it but plan to read it in its entirely as time permits.

    And as well as the ones you mentioned, I have read much of Healthful Living by White – a book that contains much nonsense.

    Having been employed as a research analyst for the government for 24 years, I have learned that one must also read the critiques – something you probably have not done with it comes either to Adventism or Ellen White.

  23. Gal. 3:10-14 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

    Note that it specifically states ‘who does not abide by ALL things written in the Book of the Law”. If you view James 2:10 it states if you do not fail in any of the law you are held accountable for all of it.

    James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

    Note that James is speaking here of both the 10 commandment (verse 11) as well as the sin of partiality (verse 9)

    What I would suggest to you is for you to study the doctrine of sanctification. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to make you Christ-like in all your behavior. That is accomplished as you abide in Him, and walk by His Spirit. In that you will learn to live by faith. And in that you will abhor anything that is sin or goes contrary to the will of God.

    Romans 1:17 17 For in it (the gospel) the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith (from start to finish), as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

    Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified (declared righteous) by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

    Our faith is not so much as only an ethical system but a relationship with the living Lord.

    Study the doctrine as it ties together all you need in understanding what the scripture teaches.

    • Lee,

      True Adventists do not rely on their observance of the Sabbath, their avoidance of sinful behavior like adultery, fornication, murder, and bearing false testimony for their salvation. They rely on God’s grace and Jesus’ death on the cross for repentance, forgiveness and for power to do God’s will as expressed in the Ten Commandments. They try to please God with the help of the Holy Spirit out of their gratitude for the one who left the comfort of heaven in order to tell us about how much God loves us.

    • Lee,

      You wrote: “Obviously you do not understand what the scripture is teaching when it says one is under a curse if one relies on the works of the law.”

      I have already answered this question in a previous post. True Adventist do not rely on their work for salvation. They do not rely on their own efforts to avoid adultery, fornication, murder, and Sabbath keeping. They rely on Jesus Christ, the power of the Holy Spirit and the power of Jesus’ love who gave his life for us on the cross.

      You cited the following text: “Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified (declared righteous) by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.”

      You probably know that Paul was citing Habakkuk, and the Hebrew word for “faith” includes the notion of faithfulness. God expects us to be faithful, and he has provided the means by which we can obey his commands. Paul said: “I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.”

      My efforts to do God’s will are like window dressing. They are worthless in God’s sight, But when I rely on God power, then he does the willing and the obeying through the power of the Holy Spirit : “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, …”

      • I have to fully agree that works have nothing to do with our eternal salvation. According to Ephesians 2:8-10 our salvation is purely by grace (God’s unmerited favor) and that whatever works we do are really the workmanship of God’s Spirit within the believer.

        “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

        If we do anything that is worthwhile, it is the work of God’s Spirit within us.

        1Corithians 1:31 Therefore, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

        While it is true that grace enables us to obey commands of God, not all commands found in the Bible are applicable to the Christian walk as some like the Levitical dietary laws, Sabbath commandment (and some others found only in the Old Testament) was given only to the Jewish nation as a means of separating them from other peoples.

        Where we have a disagreement is with the 27 Fundamental Articles of Adventist Beliefs; specifically with the view that the . Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments. (#19 The Law of God)

        This is basically double-talk in that it really brings the Christian back under the Old Covenant law, it obligates those born of God’s Spirit to obey the law. It simply says that those who have been born of God’s Spirit but do not observe the Jewish Sabbath are not Christian. Romans 8:9 “Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

        Obedience to Christ is far more than obedience to some ethical system.

        The Pharisees of Christ day were probably the world’s best commandment keepers with special emphasis on the Sabbath as a means of measuring the spiritually of others. But they were the chief enemies of Christ. Why would we want to identify with them in our walk?

        The fulfillment of the law is expressed in Romans 13:9-10 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

        The fruitage of the Christian is holiness in Christ, the Christian bearing the fruits of His Spirit – love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Gal. 5:22f

        I am having problems transmitting thru facebook, perhaps my alternate email would be better RioLion@yahoo.com

      • Lee,

        I am skipping over the issues we agree on.

        You wrote: “While it is true that grace enables us to obey commands of God, not all commands found in the Bible are applicable to the Christian walk as some like the Levitical dietary laws, Sabbath commandment (and some others found only in the Old Testament) was given only to the Jewish nation as a means of separating them from other peoples.”

        I suppose that you are not confusing the ceremonial Sabbaths with the Sabbath God blessed on the seventh day of creation. The ceremonial Sabbaths were included in the books Moses placed outside the Ark of the Covenant, while the Sabbath commemorating God’s creation was enshrined in the Decalogue and place inside the Ark.

        This is very significant for those who are careful students of the Bible. The ceremonial Sabbaths were given to the Jews only, while the Seventh-day Sabbath was blessed and gven to the entire human race.

        You also wrote: “Where we have a disagreement is with the 27 Fundamental Articles of Adventist Beliefs;”

        When I joined the Adventist Church we had no list of Fundamental Beliefs. This is something which was developed rather recently, and not all Adventists accept all of them.

        You added: “specifically with the view that the . Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments. (#19 The Law of God)”

        I don’t see why you have a problem with this. The Ten Commandments were given by God to keep us from taking God’s name in vain; to protect us from murder, adultery, and false testimony. Do you have a problem with this?

        The Sabbath was included to help us remember who the Creator is. This mandate was designed to be a great blessing for humans who are constantly tempted to believe that nature is the result of chance and evolution.

        Then you added: “This is basically double-talk in that it really brings the Christian back under the Old Covenant law, it obligates those born of God’s Spirit to obey the law.”

        The basic difference between the old covenant and the new one is, according to Scripture, that under the new one the Law is written in the heart instead of tablets of stone. If the law is written in your heart, you hate murder, adultery, fornication, and the willful desecration of God’s gift to humanity: the weekly Sabbath. If you receive a gift from your wife, would you throw it into the trash?

        You stated: “It simply says that those who have been born of God’s Spirit but do not observe the Jewish Sabbath are not Christian.”
        The weekly Sabbath does not belong to the Jews. It was blessed and given to the human race thousands of years before the birth of the Jewish nation.

        You wrote: “The Pharisees of Christ day were probably the world’s best commandment keepers with special emphasis on the Sabbath as a means of measuring the spiritually of others. But they were the chief enemies of Christ. Why would we want to identify with them in our walk?”

        The best commandment keepers? Did Jesus say that? Did he not reprimand them for breaking the Sabbath by planning on their holy day to murder him?

        When I keep the Sabbath holy, I am not identifying myself with the murderers of Jesus Christ, but rather commemorating the one who created me and who redeemed me from my slavery to sin and rebellion.

        You said: “The fulfillment of the law is expressed in Romans 13:9-10 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”

        Did you notice the phrase “and any other commandment”? The Sabbath commandment ends with: “for in six days …”

        The Lord wants us to remember once a week that he is our Creator, and he set aside only one day for said purpose: the seventh day. What would your wife think of you if instead of remembering her birthday on the day she was born you chose some other day? Would she be pleased?

        And you also said: “The fruitage of the Christian is holiness in Christ, the Christian bearing the fruits of His Spirit – love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Gal. 5:22″

        The same Lord who made the Sabbath holy is the one who makes us holy. He set the Sabbath aside for a holy purpose, and he sets us aside for a holy purpose. There is no law against holiness.

        You ended with: “I am having problems transmitting thru facebook, perhaps my alternate email would be better RioLion@yahoo.com

        Your WordPress and your Facebook registration is strictly confidential and I do not have access to them.

        Nic Samojluk

      • 1. I suppose that you are not confusing the ceremonial Sabbaths with the Sabbath God blessed on the seventh day of creation. The ceremonial Sabbaths were included in the books Moses placed outside the Ark of the Covenant, while the Sabbath commemorating God’s creation was enshrined in the Decalogue and place inside the Ark.

        Ever wonder why they called both the ceremonial and weekly observances as Sabbaths? Both are religious observances. I really do not see an observance as being anything of a moral nature. And both were given only to the nation of Israel. Neither is found as a command in the New Covenant. All the other 9 commandments are found in one form or another in the New Testament. One would think that if the weekly Sabbath were mandated to the church, we would see something explicit on it in the Epistles but we do not.

        I would place the weekly Sabbath in along with physical circumcision and the Levitical food restrictions; namely that they are simply a matter of ones personal convictions.

        2. This is very significant for those who are careful students of the Bible. The ceremonial Sabbaths were given to the Jews only, while the Seventh-day Sabbath was blessed and given to the entire human race.

        If the weekly Sabbath was given as a command to the entire human race, then we would certainly expect to see something of its observance with the Patriarchs as well as in other societies. Romans 2;14 tells us tha the Gentiles who had not the law did what the law required if they followed their conscience. There is nothing in conscience that tells anyone we must observe the Sabbath. It is learned behavior.
        .
        3. The view that “Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments. (#19 The Law of God)” has with it the implications that those that are born of God’s Spirit will observe the Old Testament Sabbath whereas those who do not observe the OT sabbath have deceived themselves and are really not born of God’s Spirit. This is not the testimony of the saints throughout the ages.

        4. The basic difference between the old covenant and the new one is, according to Scripture, that under the new one the Law is written in the heart instead of tablets of stone.

        There are over 600 laws or commands in the Old Covenant- some are ceremonial, some are civic, some obviously pertain to individuals or to the nation of Israel, and some are moral involving our relationship with others. Were those that are more ceremonial than moral (as is the Sabbath), written on believers hearts? If love of neighbor fulfills the law, then its implication would be that what is written on our hearts is that which would fulfill the law. (Romans 13:9-10) The Christian has the indwelling Holy Spirit as a guide and really does not need the law once it has accomplished its purpose to lead us to Christ that we may be justified (declared righteous) by faith. Galatians 3:24f.

        5.The basic difference between the old covenant and the new one is, according to Scripture, that under the new one the Law is written in the heart instead of tablets of stone.

        Do we really need to remember God as our creator when we need walk with him every day of our lives?

        What He has created in us is a new nature that loves Him and abhors sin. 2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. It is hard to imagine that we need a day to remind us of what the Lord has done for us.

        6. You ask why I rail on Ellen White despite the fact that thousands have come to know Christ as Lord and Savior and despite the fact that Adventism has done much to relieve suffering in the world. The fact is, that our bad doctrine or lack of understanding of His word, does not in any way prevent Him for using us for any purpose He may have. We know this from the fact that He rules over all of nature and over the affairs of this world. The inspiration or desire to do something that is good may very well be His thoughts imparted to us.

        View if you will the judgment on the sheep and the goats. He told the sheep that they gave him meat when he was hungry, drink when He was thirsty, clothing when naked, visited Him when in prison, and the reply from the sheep was really several questions. ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? sick or in prison and visit you?’

        Much of what we do if we belong to Him is really His work within us and that is something that we may not always realize. ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

        Reminds of the time a co-worker came into my office and thanked me for leading her to Christ. I still do not know what I said or did. Who knows what we said was not from Him instead of from ourselves?

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “Ever wonder why they called both the ceremonial and weekly observances as Sabbaths? Both are religious observances. I really do not see an observance as being anything of a moral nature.”

        The morality resides in the rebellious nature we inherited from Adam and Eve. God told our first parents not to eat from the forbidden tree, but Eve thought that she was wiser than the Creator. The Lord created the Sabbath and gave it to humanity many centuries before there was a Jew on earth. Do you think that God rested on the seventh day because he was tired? If he was not tired, then why did he do it? Then he blessed that day, why? Did he do it for the Jewish race which would appear thousands of year later in history?

        You said: “And both were given only to the nation of Israel.”

        How can you say that? Israel did not exist when God created the Sabbath, made it holy, and blessed it? What happened is that the human race rebelled against its Creator, and the Sabbath was forgotten. This prompted the Lord to enshrine the Sabbath in the Decalogue and God told Moses to place it inside the Ark of Covenant. The law concerning the ceremonial Sabbaths was place outside the Ark.

        You wrote: “Neither is found as a command in the New Covenant.”

        I thought you had preciously rejected the argument from silence! How come you are using what you previously have discarded? There was no need to repeat what was not being contested among the Jews. No other doctrine was so ingrained in the Jewish mind like the importance of keeping the Sabbath holy. The evidence is that they used this as an excuse to crucify Jesus.

        Jesus did keep the Sabbath holy, and so did his disciples. Jesus even instructed his followers to pray that their departure from the city of Jerusalem would not take on the Sabbath day. If Jesus believed that the Sabbath was not important, why would he be worried that his followers be protected from having to flee from Jerusalem on the Sabbath day? If Christians were Sunday keepers four decades after the death of Jesus, why would Jesus tell them to pray that their flight not take on the Sabbath Day?

        You said: “All the other 9 commandments are found in one form or another in the New Testament. One would think that if the weekly Sabbath were mandated to the church, we would see something explicit on it in the Epistles but we do not.”

        Can you ask for something more explicit than Jesus’ instruction to his followers to pray that their flight would not take on the Sabbath Day?

        You argued: “I would place the weekly Sabbath in along with physical circumcision and the Levitical food restrictions; namely that they are simply a matter of ones personal convictions.”

        Those restrictions were not blessed on the Seventh Day of creation week, and they were not placed inside the Ark, and they were not included in the Ten Commandments!

        You wrote: “If the weekly Sabbath was given as a command to the entire human race, then we would certainly expect to see something of its observance with the Patriarchs as well as in other societies.”

        Parents teach some things by specific commands and others by sheer example. The Lord said: “Be ye holy because I am holy.” A Holy God rested on the Seventh day of the week and wants us to be holy as well, as he is Holy. I do not recall ever ordered my children not to murder or steal. They learned from me through my example.

        You reasoned: “Romans 2;14 tells us tha the Gentiles who had not the law did what the law required if they followed their conscience. There is nothing in conscience that tells anyone we must observe the Sabbath. It is learned behavior.”

        Yes, it is a learned behavior. We learn to be like Jesus by following his example. He set the example when he rested on the Seventh Day at the end of thee Creation week. If conscience were all we needed, there would be no Bible to guide us as a lamp for our feet.

        You stated: “The Christian has the indwelling Holy Spirit as a guide and really does not need the law once it has accomplished its purpose to lead us to Christ that we may be justified (declared righteous) by faith. Galatians 3:24f.”

        If all we need is the Holy Spirit, then why do you use the Bible at every turn? You should perhaps discard it as excess baggage. You have your conscience and the Holy Spirit, why do you need more than that?

        Jesus had both, and he was the Son of God, yet he memorized Scripture and prayed more earnestly than any human being had in the history of the human race. Why? Because of the evil and rebellious nature we inherited from Adam and Eve.

        You said: “Do we really need to remember God as our creator when we need walk with him every day of our lives?”

        Yes, we do. Jesus was the Son of God, and the Holy one of Israel, yet he needed to study Scripture and the daily communion with his Father.

        You added: “What He has created in us is a new nature that loves Him and abhors sin. 2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. It is hard to imagine that we need a day to remind us of what the Lord has done for us.”

        Can you be wiser than the God who created you? The Lord blessed only one day, regardless of your personal wishes that he had done otherwise. He never blessed Sunday, and he never abrogated what he enshrined in the Ten Commandment.

        He told us the reason he wants us to keep said day holy: “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth.” Do you need more that this? Jesus stated that “The Sabbath was made for man.” He did not say that it was made for the Jews. Jesus was referring to the Creation recorded in Genesis 1.

        Nic Samojluk

      • 1. I really do not see an observance as being anything of a moral nature.” The morality resides in the rebellious nature we inherited from Adam and Eve.

        True but that issue has nothing to do with the creation or the Sabbath, either the weekly or the ceremonial types. Adam & Eve simply disobeyed the command by God not to eat of the fruit.

        2. The Lord created the Sabbath and gave it to humanity many centuries before there was a Jew on earth

        While God ‘rested’ on the seventh day and sanctified it, there was no command to observe it as the Sabbath until Mt. Sinai. There is nothing to indicate that any other peoples beside the Hebrew ever observed the sabbath. The fact is that Egypt, Babylonia and other countries had a 10 day calendar.
        3.the Lord to enshrine the Sabbath in the Decalogue and God told Moses to place it inside the Ark of Covenant.

        Proper as the Sabbath was the sign of the Covenant God made only with Israel at Mt. Sinai. Exodus 31:13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.

        Only with Israel? De 5:2-3 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did the LORD make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today.

        4. Do you think that God rested on the seventh day because he was tired? If he was not tired, then why did he do it? Then he blessed that day, why?

        The seventh day was the completion of His Creation, He saw that all was good.

        5. If Jesus believed that the Sabbath was not important, why would he be worried that his followers be protected from having to flee from Jerusalem on the Sabbath day?

        Those that do not know early church history do not realize that the earliest church was all Jewish and as such continued to run on the well-worn grooves of Jewish piety. They continued to circumcise their male children, observe the Sabbath (both the weekly and ceremonial), attend temple worship, followed the Levitical dietary laws, as well as observed all the national feasts.

        However such strictly and unique Jewish tenets were not imposed onto the Gentile believers. That issue was supposedly settled at the Jerusalem council Acts 15. You may want to view the verse in Acts 15:8-9 “And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.”

        In order for Gentile converts to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, circumcision, sabbath observance, etc. was not required of them. They merely accepted the salvation offered to them when they came to believe that Jesus was the Messiah. The fact that Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit was sufficient for those at Jerusalem to recognize the Lord had accepted them and that without becoming proselytes to Judaism.

        Why did Jesus warn that they must pray their flight be not on the Sabbath or in the winter? The scene in Matthew 24:15f is of the end times and pertains only to those who lived in Judaea. It would have wrought hardship on those who observed the Sabbath and travel in winter may have caused much hardship. This would not have been of any concern to Gentile believers as most lived in land outside of Judaea.

        6. The Lord created the Sabbath and gave it to humanity many centuries before there was a Jew on earth.

        While God ‘rested’ on the seventh day and sanctified it, there was no command to observe it as the Sabbath until Mt. Sinai. There is nothing to indicate that any other peoples beside the Hebrew ever observed the sabbath. The fact is that Egypt, Babylonia and other countries had a 10 day calendar; not a 7 day week.

        We should also note that the Hebrew calendar was a lunar calendar that had to be adjusted from time to time. It started after Moses left Egypt. Exodus 12:1-2 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

        7. The law concerning the ceremonial Sabbaths was place outside the Ark. You wrote: “Neither is found as a command in the New Covenant.” I thought you had preciously rejected the argument from silence!

        I believe I am justified in making that conclusion since most certainly anything that was of any great importance or essential to our salvation and walk would be found in the New covenant.

        8. There is nothing in conscience that tells anyone we must observe the Sabbath. It is learned behavior.” Yes, it is a learned behavior. We learn to be like Jesus by following his example. He set the example when he rested on the Seventh Day at the end of thee Creation week.

        Thank you so very much in saying that the Sabbath commandment is learned behavior; not a moral law as moral law is something that is inherent in man who was created in God’s image.

        It would have been impossible to say that the Gentiles did what the law required while they did not have the law, if the Sabbath were a moral entity in man.

        In following the ‘example” like Jesus, do you realize that there can be a problem here? Jesus was a Jew under the Old Covenant; we need not become proselytes to Judaism to be like Him.

        Galatians 4:4-5 4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

        9. One final point – Consider that Scripture tells us that the covenant God made only with Israel at Mt. Sinai is the 10 commandments – everything else was peripheral.

        Deuteronomy De 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.

        And consider the New Testament scripture –

        Hebrews 8: 13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

        So since the Sabbath is not a tenet in the New Covenant all you really have is from a covenant that was declared obsolete.

        Hebrews 9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness.

        And one of those regulations was both the weekly and ceremonial Sabbaths.

        10..”If all we need is the Holy Spirit, then why do you use the Bible at every turn?

        The Holy Spirit would never violate the Words of Scripture.

        2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

        There has been thousands that were illiterate but in having the indwelling Holy Spirit have been able to understand (but not verify) the truths found in the Word of God. Those who have received the Spirit of Christ into their lives are saved despite their lack of knowledge concerning the scripture.

        We are commanded to study scripture. –

        2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that need not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

        I like the way the Westminster Confession of faith puts this into its proper perspective.

        XIX. 6. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin: and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in

        You do a very good job of defending what you believe and I highly respect you for that. For someone that is really searching for an authoritative belief system, I believe Adventism would be appealing.

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “True but that issue has nothing to do with the creation or the Sabbath, either the weekly or the ceremonial types. Adam & Eve simply disobeyed the command by God not to eat of the fruit.”

        Yes, and Cain did not disobey any commandment when he murdered his brother! Right? Can you cite God’s prohibition against murder in Genesis?

        You stated: “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.”

        Thanks for citing that biblical passage. Notice that the Lord wanted them to keep the Sabbath holy to remind them that it was he who could sanctify them. God wanted them to remember that the one who made the Sabbath holy has the power to make them holy as well.

        You argued: “Only with Israel? De 5:2-3 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did the LORD make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today.”

        True, and they broke said covenant immediately in the desert when they worshipped the golden calf. This old covenant was made on the basis of their human promise to keep God’s Law.

        This is why the Bible talks about the new covenant in which God writes his Ten Commandments—not on tablets of stone—but rather on human hearts. Have you asked the Lord to write his Law in your heart? Did the Lord forget to include the Sabbath?

        You further wrote: “The seventh day was the completion of His Creation, He saw that all was good.”

        That is a poor answer! Give me a better one! If God was not tired after six days of creative work, whey did he rest on the seventh day, and why did he bestow his blessing on said day?

        I’ll give you mine: The Lord probably spent that day in the company of Adam and Eve, whom he had just created, and by blessing said day he set an example for them to follow every seventh day of the week.

        Children have a tendency to imitate the actions of their parents, and they learn more by example than by following strict orders.

        We have no record that God had forbidden murder, avarice, sexual perversion, theft, selfishness, pride, or any other sinful behavior. Should we conclude that those things were permitted to Adam, Eve and their progeny? Is it safe to build our doctrine on silence?

        Then you wrote: “Those that do not know early church history do not realize that the earliest church was all Jewish and as such continued to run on the well-worn grooves of Jewish piety. They continued to circumcise their male children, observe the Sabbath (both the weekly and ceremonial), attend temple worship, followed the Levitical dietary laws, as well as observed all the national feasts.”

        Since you admit this fact of history, then how come Sunday keepers argue that the sanctity of the Sabbath was transferred to Sunday? Evidently Jesus knew that his followers would still be keeping the Sabbath holy four decades following his departure and asked them to pray that their flight would not take on a Sabbath day.

        You wrote: “However such strictly and unique Jewish tenets were not imposed onto the Gentile believers. That issue was supposedly settled at the Jerusalem council Acts 15.”

        Do you really believe that the prohibitions imposed on gentile converts was an exhaustive list of all the sins Jewish Christians expected them to stay away from? How about all the sins which were not included in said list? Would you use such a list for Christian converts today? Did Paul strictly follow said list in his dealing with his gentile converts?

        And you added: “In order for Gentile converts to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, circumcision, Sabbath observance etc. was not required of them.”

        True! Does this mean that they were free to murder, steal, engage in deception, and the multitude of other sinful behaviors? Can you see where your argument based on silence leads?

        You wrote: “Jesus was a Jew under the Old Covenant; we need not become proselytes to Judaism to be like Him.”

        Do not forget what Jesus told the Samaritan woman: “Salvation comes from the Jews.” God promised Abraham that his posterity would be a blessing for the human race. Said blessing included the weekly day of rest created by God at the beginning.

        If you have not experienced the blessings of the Sabbath, I suggest that you try the following. Try setting aside the seventh day of the week for a month in remembrance of Creation. If you have grandchildren, take them for a day with nature, a park, a zoo, and tell them the story of creation. Then do the same experiment with a month with Sunday keeping. If the Lord blessed the Sabbath, then you should notice a difference between the two.

        You also said: “Hebrews 8: 13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”

        The difference between the old covenant and the new one was that the former was based on human efforts to keep God’s Law which always ends in failure. The new covenant was based on God’s promise to write his Law not on tablets of stone, but on the human heart.

        You responded: “The Holy Spirit would never violate the Words of Scripture.”

        True! Then why are you citing the Bible so much?

        You added: “2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.”

        Yes, which means that the Holy Spirit is not enough! We need, God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the angels, the Bible, the Decalogue, the guidance of our parents, the communion of the Christian brothers and sisters, and much more!

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, You wrote: “True but that issue has nothing to do with the creation or the Sabbath, either the weekly or the ceremonial types. Adam & Eve simply disobeyed the command by God not to eat of the fruit.” Yes, and Cain did not disobey any commandment when he murdered his brother! Right? Can you cite God’s prohibition against murder in Genesis?
        —————–
        **Like I stated before, moral law is inherent in the very nature of man created in the image of God. Every society known to man has much the same concept of moral law. Suggest you ask any anthropologist on this issue and you will get the same answer. Murder, theft, adultery is something condemned in all societies including those that are ancient.
        Man does not have to be taught what nature has already revealed to him.
        ———————–
        You stated: “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.” Thanks for citing that biblical passage. Notice that the Lord wanted them to keep the Sabbath holy to remind them that it was he who could sanctify them. God wanted them to remember that the one who made the Sabbath holy has the power to make them holy as well. You argued: “Only with Israel? De 5:2-3 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did the LORD make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today.” True, and they broke said covenant immediately in the desert when they worshipped the golden calf. This old covenant was made on the basis of their human promise to keep God’s Law. This is why the Bible talks about the new covenant in which God writes his Ten Commandments—not on tablets of stone—but rather on human hearts. Have you asked the Lord to write his Law in your heart? Did the Lord forget to include the Sabbath?
        ———————–
        **Again, what God writes on the hearts of believers is that which would fulfill the law. And love of neighbor is what fulfills the law. Romans 13:9-10. What does the observance of a particular day of the week have to do with love of neighbor? If you answered nothing, you got the right answer. In any case, you still need to get around the argument that God made a NEW Covenant with Israel making the Old Covenant obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) and since there is nothing in the New Covenant that mandates the observance of any day, all you have is a tenet from a covenant that has been declared obsolete. I really do not know how you can get around this issue.
        ——————–
        You further wrote: “The seventh day was the completion of His Creation, He saw that all was good.” That is a poor answer! Give me a better one! If God was not tired after six days of creative work, whey did he rest on the seventh day, and why did he bestow his blessing on said day? I’ll give you mine: The Lord probably spent that day in the company of Adam and Eve, whom he had just created, and by blessing said day he set an example for them to follow every seventh day of the week. Children have a tendency to imitate the actions of their parents, and they learn more by example than by following strict orders.
        —————

        **Mere speculation is all we really have. Perhaps God got into a poker game with His angels on this day.

        Different theologians have offered differing viewpoints since the Scripture by itself does not explain itself on this issue. For now I will give you what Ray Stedman has to offer on this question.

        “Let us not misunderstand that. That does not mean rest as we often think of it. When we have been working hard and are weary and tired we need rest in order to restore our strength. But this is not the significance of the word here. It simply means the ending of activity, the cessation of effort. God was not tired by his creative work, he did not need to rest to restore strength. He did not stop because he was fatigued; he stopped because he was through. The Hawaiians have a very expressive word for it, pau. It means finished. He is pau, finished; and so he stopped. That is what we do when we are through with something, we stop. And this is what God did. He stopped because he was through. He had done all he intended to do and he rested in the midst of a perfect creation. Therefore the true Sabbath, we will learn from this clue, is not the keeping of a special day but the ending of a specific effort. That is what Sabbath means.”
        http://www.raystedman.org/old-testament/genesis/the-seventh-day
        ———————-
        We have no record that God had forbidden murder, avarice, sexual perversion, theft, selfishness, pride, or any other sinful behavior. Should we conclude that those things were permitted to Adam, Eve and their progeny? Is it safe to build our doctrine on silence?
        —————-
        **I would not regard basic moral law inherent in man’s very nature as being anything of a doctrinal issue. We see from Romans 2:14 that Gentiles did what the law required simply by obeying the conscience despite the fact they did not have the law. What they say is that man is without excuse for not observing moral law. You really need to think about this a little more deeper as clearly moral law is not something that needs to be learned but is inherent in man’s very nature. I do not see observance of the Sabbath as a moral law since if it were, then we would certainly see something of it in other societies.
        ——————–
        Then you wrote: “Those that do not know early church history do not realize that the earliest church was all Jewish and as such continued to run on the well-worn grooves of Jewish piety. They continued to circumcise their male children, observe the Sabbath (both the weekly and ceremonial), attend temple worship, followed the Levitical dietary laws, as well as observed all the national feasts.” Since you admit this fact of history, then how come Sunday keepers argue that the sanctity of the Sabbath was transferred to Sunday?
        ———–

        **The view that the Sabbath was transferred to Sunday from Saturday is simply wrong. While some have held the view that the Sunday became the Christian Sabbath, I do not see the observance of any day mandated in scripture.

        Christians at first went to the Jewish synagogues on the Sabbath, they also met on the Lord’s Day as the breaking of bread was something that was not part of the Jewish synagogue worship. Church historians tell us that most in the Jewish synagogues did not accept the gospel message and soon Christians whether Jewish or Gentile were no longer welcomed. The early church model was the house church with communal worship on Sundays.
        ————————
        Evidently Jesus knew that his followers would still be keeping the Sabbath holy four decades following his departure and asked them to pray that their flight would not take on a Sabbath day. You wrote: “However such strictly and unique Jewish tenets were not imposed onto the Gentile believers. That issue was supposedly settled at the Jerusalem council Acts 15.” Do you really believe that the prohibitions imposed on gentile converts was an exhaustive list of all the sins Jewish Christians expected them to stay away from?
        ————-
        **I do believe that since it was evident that Gentile believers received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:8f), that no distinctive laws of Judaism were imposed on them. Moral laws were already held in common with Judaism, so it was unnecessary to address moral law. In effect physical circumcision, the Levitical dietary laws, the Sabbath, and other observances fell by the wayside and were left up to the individual.

        Bacchiocchi (SDA church historian “From Sabbath to Sunday”) holds the view that Gentiles discarded laws that would identify them with the Jews because of Roman persecutions. While the theory is a good one, we do not see much persecution of Jews outside of Palestine but what we do see is persecution of Christians from the like of Diocletian, Nero and nearly all other Roman emperors until the time of Constantine in the 4th century.
        See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire\——————————
        How about all the sins which were not included in said list? Would you use such a list for Christian converts today? Did Paul strictly follow said list in his dealing with his gentile converts? And you added: “In order for Gentile converts to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, circumcision, Sabbath observance etc. was not required of them. ”True! Does this mean that they were free to murder, steal, engage in deception, and the multitude of other sinful behaviors? Can you see where your argument based on silence leads? You wrote: “Jesus was a Jew under the Old Covenant; we need not become proselytes to Judaism to be like Him.” Do not forget what Jesus told the Samaritan woman: “Salvation comes from the Jews.” God promised Abraham that his posterity would be a blessing for the human race.
        ————-
        **Again moral law was something prevalent in all societies so there was no need for the Jerusalem council to address that. The Holy Spirit was a sufficient teacher to correct the believers in Christ as to their walk. And that is true even of today.

        The fact that God promised Abraham that his posterity would be a blessing for the human race was based on faith in Christ, not the importation of laws that were distinctively Jewish in nature. Adventism focuses far too much on works of the law rather than on faith. Works of the law are secondary to faith.

        We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. Galatians 2:15-16

        But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Galatians 3:12

        We are all accountable to God regardless of what we do or believe. it is important that seek the truth in all things; that we study, learn to listen and heed what is right. If we seek God, He will teach us all that we need to know.

        Those born of God’s Spirit become part of the Family of God and thus come under the discipline of God Himself. Hebrews 12:6-11 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
        and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
        ————————–
        Said blessing included the weekly day of rest created by God at the beginning. If you have not experienced the blessings of the Sabbath, I suggest that you try the following. Try setting aside the seventh day of the week for a month in remembrance of Creation. If you have grandchildren, take them for a day with nature, a park, a zoo, and tell them the story of creation. Then do the same experiment with a month with Sunday keeping. If the Lord blessed the Sabbath, then you should notice a difference between the two.
        ——————-
        **The blessing we received does not depend upon the day we worship but worshipping with other Christians and in studying and sharing His word with others. God not only speaks from the pulpit but through other Christians even in informal gatherings. I have realized God speaking to me and to others when we gather together. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” Matthew 18:20

        And that is where the blessing is at; not on gathering on a particular day of the week but with gathering with other Christians.
        —————–
        You also said: “Hebrews 8: 13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. ”The difference between the old covenant and the new one was that the former was based on human efforts to keep God’s Law which always ends in failure. The new covenant was based on God’s promise to write his Law not on tablets of stone, but on the human heart.
        —————–

        **The law that God writes on our hearts is the one that enables us to love our neighbor and thus fulfill the law (Romans 13:9-10). What He also writes upon our hearts is the desire to do His will. Php. 2:13 “for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

        You responded: “The Holy Spirit would never violate the Words of Scripture. ”True! Then why are you citing the Bible so much? You added: “2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. ”Yes, which means that the Holy Spirit is not enough! We need, God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the angels, the Bible, the Decalogue, the guidance of our parents, the communion of the Christian brothers and sisters, and much more!
        —————
        **It is the Holy Spirit that works through all of these channels to teach us and to supply for all of our needs. It is very important for us to have communion with other Christians. Hebrews 10:2-25 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “Man does not have to be taught what nature has already revealed to him.”

        Correct! This is precisely why God has chosen to reveal to us what took place on the seventh day of creation week. God blessed that day for the benefit of humanity, and he re-emphasized this fact by including a reminder of this in the Fourth Commandment and instructed Moses to place the two tablets of stone containing the Decalogue inside the Ark of the Covenant.

        If nature were all we needed to know what our duty to God is, then we would not need the book of Genesis nor the Bible. The fact that we have the Bible is evidence that the book of nature is not enough. Nature cannot tell us which is the correct day for worshipping our Creator. Without the Bible, we would be missing the blessings of the Sabbath Day.

        You asked: “What does the observance of a particular day of the week have to do with love of neighbor?”

        Jesus summarized the Ten Commandments as follows: Love towards God and love towards our neighbor. The Sabbath has more to do with our love towards God. The Lord asked us to remember the Sabbath. You have chosen to ignore this and you will be the looser because the Sabbath comes with blessings which have never been ushered on any other day. It’s like the Fourth of July, or your wedding anniversary, or your wife’s birthday. No other day can replace the correct day.

        You argued: : “In any case, you still need to get around the argument that God made a NEW Covenant with Israel making the Old Covenant obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) and since there is nothing in the New Covenant that mandates the observance of any day, all you have is a tenet from a covenant that has been declared obsolete. I really do not know how you can get around this issue.”

        The difference between the old covenant and the new one has nothing to do with a change in the Ten Commandments. The Decalogue was not abrogated. The difference is that the new covenant is based on what God does instead of what human efforts can produce. The old covenant was based on human efforts to obey God’s will, while with the new covenant the Lord writes his will in our hearts and we become eager to please the Lord.

        You observed: “Mere speculation is all we really have. Perhaps God got into a poker game with His angels on this day.”

        Yes, but the record found in Genesis 2 and Exodus 20 is not speculation. It is God’s message for you. If you reject it, you’ll be the looser. The Sabbath comes with a blessing. Do you need God’s blessing? If you do, then I suggest that you accept what the Lord reserved for you.

        You cited the following: “And this is what God did. He stopped because he was through. He had done all he intended to do and he rested in the midst of a perfect creation. Therefore the true Sabbath, we will learn from this clue, is not the keeping of a special day but the ending of a specific effort. That is what Sabbath means.” http://www.raystedman.org/old-testament/genesis/the-seventh-day

        If that is all, then tell me why did the Lord take the trouble to bless the seventh day of the week? And why did God include in the Sabbath commandment the phrase “remember to keep the Sabbath holy?” The purpose of the Sabbath commandment is stated with crystal clear terms. It Specifically states the reason for keeping the Sabbath: because God created the heavens and the earth in six days and rested on the seventh day.

        The entire world has been deceived into believing that the story of Genesis is a myth and that nature simply evolved without a divine intervention. By rejecting the Sabbath, you are helping the enemy in his effort to lead the minds of people away from the Creator. If the Sabbath had been kept the way God designed, there would be no Darwinian evolution in our world.

        You argued: “You really need to think about this a little more deeper as clearly moral law is not something that needs to be learned but is inherent in man’s very nature. I do not see observance of the Sabbath as a moral law since if it were, then we would certainly see something of it in other societies.”

        Did you realize that your argument negates the need for God’s revelation of his will? If your argument is correct, then we might as well thrash the Bible. Why did God add to nature the Bible? Because what nature teaches is not enough!

        You wrote: “The early church model was the house church with communal worship on Sundays.”

        This is what Sunday keepers want us to believe. I suggest that you read what other more reliable sources teach:
        1.
        http://www.auss.info/auss_publication_file.php?pub_id=596&journal=1&type=pdf

        2. http://www.coghomeschool.org/site/cog_archives/booklets/truth_about_sunday_observance___.htm

        3. http://www.rogerswebsite.com/others/How-Did-Sunday-Keeping-Begin.htm
        HOW DID SUNDAY-KEEPING BEGIN?

        “By Samuele Bacchiocchi

        How did the change come about from Saturday to Sunday in early Christianity? To find an answer to this question I spent five years at the Pontitical University in Rome, investigating for my doctoral dissertation the earliest Christian documents. The findings of my investigation have been published in my book From Sabbath to Sunday: A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity. This article represents a brief summary of my research.

        Historically, the change from Sabbath to Sunday has been attributed to the ecclesiastica ority of the Roman Catholic church rather than to Biblical or apostolic precepts. Thomas Aquinas, for example, explicitly states that “the observance of the Lord’s Day took the place of the observance of the Sabbath not by virtue of the [Biblical] precept but by the institution of the church.”1

        Recently, however, some scholars have argued that Sunday observance has a Biblical and apostolic origin. According to these scholars, from the inceptions of the Church the Apostles themselves chose the first day of the week in place of the seventh day in order to commemorate the resurrection of Christ. 2

        My own assessment of the sources is that this thesis is wrong on two counts. First, the change from Saturday to Sunday occurred sometime after 135 A.D. as a result of an interplay of political, social, pagan and religious factors to be mentioned below. Second, the change originated in Rome and not in Jerusalem. Before submitting the reasons for my conclusions, we shall briefly examine the alleged role of Christ, of the resurrection and of the Jerusalem church in the origin of Sunday. … [Read more by clicking on the link posted above]

        You stated: “The Holy Spirit was a sufficient teacher to correct the believers in Christ as to their walk. And that is true even of today.”

        This was wrong before and is still wrong today. Would you throw your Bible into the thrash bin? How can you, a person who has spent so many years working with the distribution of the Bible use such an erroneous claim? If all we need is the Holy Spirit, then the Bible is superfluous and irrelevant.

        You also wrote: “The fact that God promised Abraham that his posterity would be a blessing for the human race was based on faith in Christ, not the importation of laws that were distinctively Jewish in nature.”

        The Sabbath was not created for the Jewish race. It was created thousands of years before the appearance of the first Jew on earth.

        You said: “Works of the law are secondary to faith.”

        True faith produces fruits. A tree without fruit is worthless. Jesus said: “If you love me, keep my commandments.” Jesus is the one who created the Sabbath and the Ten Rules for human behavior.

        I noticed that we have begun to repeat ourselves too much. Perhaps it would be wise to avoid this. Readers have the tendency to get tired of reading the same arguments over and over again.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, You wrote: “Man does not have to be taught what nature has already revealed to him. ”Correct! This is precisely why God has chosen to reveal to us what took place on the seventh day of creation week. God blessed that day for the benefit of humanity, and he re-emphasized this fact by including a reminder of this in the Fourth Commandment and instructed Moses to place the two tablets of stone containing the Decalogue inside the Ark of the Covenant. If nature were all we needed to know what our duty to God is, then we would not need the book of Genesis nor the Bible. The fact that we have the Bible is evidence that the book of nature is not enough. Nature cannot tell us which is the correct day for worshipping our Creator. Without the Bible, we would be missing the blessings of the Sabbath Day.
        ————–
        **I am glad to you believe as I do that nature teaches us moral law and in that one can do what the law requires by following conscience despite the fact that we may not have the law. Moral law is not something that is learned. This is basically what Romans 2:14 is all about.

        The subject you are addressing is revelation. In a theological sense there are two kinds of revelation, Special and General. General revelation is often considered to be the Bible or creation or other things that can be viewed or discovered by man. Special revelation is revelation that comes directly from God or an Angel to an individual. Special revelation is God speaking through His Word, the Bible, visions, dreams, the voice of God himself, or miracles or any other supernatural means.

        The blessing you received from observance of the Sabbath day is simply the result of our worship with others as where two or three are gathered together in His name, He is in the midst of us. (Mt. 18:20) The fellowship of the presence of the Lord and with others in whom dwells His Spirit is truly a blessing. But our gathering together in the name of Jesus is something that can be done any day of the week. I often am filled with an indescribable joy upon worshipping the Lord – a joy very similar to that when I experienced when I was born again of His Spirit. A feeling of His presence is often with me even particularly when I pray.
        ————————-
        You asked: “What does the observance of a particular day of the week have to do with love of neighbor? ”Jesus summarized the Ten Commandments as follows: Love towards God and love towards our neighbor. The Sabbath has more to do with our love towards God. The Lord asked us to remember the Sabbath. You have chosen to ignore this and you will be the looser because the Sabbath comes with blessings which have never been ushered on any other day. It’s like the Fourth of July, or your wedding anniversary, or your wife’s birthday. No other day can replace the correct day.
        ————–
        **Where did the lord ask US Christians to remember the Sabbath? New Testament book, chapter and verse please.

        It is the Holy Spirit that indwells the Christian that causes us to love God as well as our neighbor. It is something that we really have to do as it has become part of that new nature we acquired when we were born of His Spirit.

        2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

        We also show love toward God by what we do for our neighbor.

        Jesus said ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ Matthew 25:40

        We cannot love God unless His Spirit dwells within us. Agree?

        1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.

        The commandments we obey are those that are applicable to the New Covenant and may be something He would command of us to do in the fulfillment of His calling in our lives.

        One main issue many have with Seventh Day Adventists is what constitutes the law. I believe when the Bible speaks of law, it does not make any distinction between ceremonial, civic, or moral law. The law is the law period. And do we fulfill the law when we love our neighbor. Romans 13:9-10 says that we do.
        ————————-
        You argued: : “In any case, you still need to get around the argument that God made a NEW Covenant with Israel making the Old Covenant obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) and since there is nothing in the New Covenant that mandates the observance of any day, all you have is a tenet from a covenant that has been declared obsolete. I really do not know how you can get around this issue.”
        The difference between the old covenant and the new one has nothing to do with a change in the Ten Commandments.
        ——-
        **The scriptures tells us that the Ten Commandments is the covenant God made with Israel at Mt. Sinai.

        Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
        ————
        The Decalogue was not abrogated. The difference is that the new covenant is based on what God does instead of what human efforts can produce. The old covenant was based on human efforts to obey God’s will, while with the new covenant the Lord writes his will in our hearts and we become eager to please the Lord.
        ————–
        The difference between the New Covenant and the Old Covenant is explained in 2 Cor. 3:7f. The Old Covenant is one of law, while the New Covenant is one of the Spirit.

        It is interesting that the New Testament refers to the ten commandments as being the ministry of death and condemnation superseded by the more glorious ministry of the Spirit.

        2 Cor. 3:7-11 Now if the ministry of DEATH, carved in letters on stone (what else if not the 10 commandments), came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of CONDEMNATION, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

        .For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Cor. 3:6

        Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
        —————–
        You observed: “Mere speculation is all we really have. Perhaps God got into a poker game with His angels on this day.” Yes, but the record found in Genesis 2 and Exodus 20 is not speculation. It is God’s message for you. If you reject it, you’ll be the looser.
        ———-
        **The record in Exodus 20 refers to those who have come out of Egypt.

        (20:2) “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

        Were you or any of your ancestry ever slaves in Egypt?
        ————-
        The Sabbath comes with a blessing. Do you need God’s blessing? If you do, then I suggest that you accept what the Lord reserved for you.

        **The blessing one received is to have an intimate fellowship with the Living Lord and with those in whom His Spirit indwells. It is not of necessity, the observance of a particular day of the week.

        You cited the following: “And this is what God did. He stopped because he was through. He had done all he intended to do and he rested in the midst of a perfect creation. Therefore the true Sabbath, we will learn from this clue, is not the keeping of a special day but the ending of a specific effort. That is what Sabbath means.”

        http://www.raystedman.org/old-testament/genesis/the-seventh-day

        If that is all, then tell me why did the Lord take the trouble to bless the seventh day of the week?
        ————
        **The seventh day God rested merely prefigured that rest of the believer in Christ. We need not strive for our salvation as it is all of grace though faith not of ourselves as it is a gift from God and we become His workmanship. Eph. 2:8-10
        ————-

        And why did God include in the Sabbath commandment the phrase “remember to keep the Sabbath holy?”
        **And to whom did God tell to remember the Sabbath day? Was it to the human race or to Israel? Like the dietary laws, it was a means of sanctifying or separating Israel from other peoples.

        God told Noah to go build a boat, but are we to do the same? One needs to distinguish between what God commanded Israel and what He desires of His church. That is the reason for the New Covenant.
        ————–
        The purpose of the Sabbath commandment is stated with crystal clear terms.

        **Agree -Deuteronomy 5:15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. THEREFORE the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
        ————
        It Specifically states the reason for keeping the Sabbath: because God created the heavens and the earth in six days and rested on the seventh day. The entire world has been deceived into believing that the story of Genesis is a myth and that nature simply evolved without a divine intervention. By rejecting the Sabbath, you are helping the enemy in his effort to lead the minds of people away from the Creator. If the Sabbath had been kept the way God designed, there would be no Darwinian evolution in our world.

        **One may believe in the Creation account and realize its fulfillment was in the ministry of Christ. The enemy does not want us to worship God on any day of the week. One major problem with Sabbaterians is that they think God’s blessing are something that they MERIT by their observance of a particular day of the week. God’s blessing are to those born of His Spirit who will take of their Cross and follow Him. Mt. 16:24.
        ————-
        You argued: “You really need to think about this a little more deeper as clearly moral law is not something that needs to be learned but is inherent in man’s very nature. I do not see observance of the Sabbath as a moral law since if it were, then we would certainly see something of it in other societies.” Did you realize that your argument negates the need for God’s revelation of his will? If your argument is correct, then we might as well thrash the Bible. Why did God add to nature the Bible? Because what nature teaches is not enough! You wrote: “The early church model was the house church with communal worship on Sundays.” This is what Sunday keepers want us to believe. I suggest that you read what other more reliable sources teach:

        http://www.auss.info/auss_publication_file.php?pub_id=596&journal=1&type=pdf 2

        http://www.coghomeschool.org/site/cog_archives/booklets/truth_about_sunday_observance___.htm

        http://www.rogerswebsite.com/others/How-Did-Sunday-Keeping-Begin.htm

        HOW DID SUNDAY-KEEPING BEGIN? “By Samuele Bacchiocchi How did the change come about from Saturday to Sunday in early Christianity? To find an answer to this question I spent five years at the Pontifical University in Rome, investigating for my doctoral dissertation the earliest Christian documents. The findings of my investigation have been published in my book From Sabbath to Sunday: A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity. This article represents a brief summary of my research. Historically, the change from Sabbath to Sunday has been attributed to the ecclesiastics of the Roman Catholic church rather than to Biblical or apostolic precepts. Thomas Aquinas, for example, explicitly states that “the observance of the Lord’s Day took the place of the observance of the Sabbath not by virtue of the [Biblical] precept but by the institution of the church.”
        1 Recently, however, some scholars have argued that Sunday observance has a Biblical and apostolic origin. According to these scholars, from the inceptions of the Church the Apostles themselves chose the first day of the week in place of the seventh day in order to commemorate the resurrection of Christ.
        2 My own assessment of the sources is that this thesis is wrong on two counts. First, the change from Saturday to Sunday occurred sometime after 135 A.D. as a result of an interplay of political, social, pagan and religious factors to be mentioned below. Second, the change originated in Rome and not in Jerusalem. Before submitting the reasons for my conclusions, we shall briefly examine the alleged role of Christ, of the resurrection and of the Jerusalem church in the origin of Sunday. … [Read more by clicking on the link posted above]

        You stated: “The Holy Spirit was a sufficient teacher to correct the believers in Christ as to their walk. And that is true even of today.” This was wrong before and is still wrong today. Would you throw your Bible into the thrash bin? How can you, a person who has spent so many years working with the distribution of the Bible use such an erroneous claim? If all we need is the Holy Spirit, then the Bible is superfluous and irrelevant.
        ————-
        **2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

        There has been thousand of dedicated Christians that either were unable to read or did not even have access to the Scripture; yet they knew much of what was in the Scripture simply by their fellowship with Christ.

        Our salvation and walk does not depend upon having all the correct theological beliefs as our is one of a relationship with the Living Lord. His Holy Spirit does guide those that are His and that often to the Scripture or to the teachers He has given to His church.
        ————

        You also wrote: “The fact that God promised Abraham that his posterity would be a blessing for the human race was based on faith in Christ, not the importation of laws that were distinctively Jewish in nature.” The Sabbath was not created for the Jewish race. It was created thousands of years before the appearance of the first Jew on earth. You said: “Works of the law are secondary to faith.” True faith produces fruits. A tree without fruit is worthless. Jesus said: “If you love me, keep my commandments.” Jesus is the one who created the Sabbath and the Ten Rules for human behavior. I noticed that we have begun to repeat ourselves too much. Perhaps it would be wise to avoid this. Readers have the tendency to get tired of reading the same arguments over and over again.

        **Agree that if we love the Lord we will obey His commandments – those that are applicable!

        have read sections of Bacchiocchi’s book and currently reading it in its entirety as time permits. I have already read some of the critiques.

        While I would agree that the observance of Sunday did not begin in Jerusalem as the initial leadership were all Jewish Christians and continue to practice all laws that were peculiar to Judaism.

        I would suspect that the prevailing deep discrimination between Jews and Gentiles may have contributed to the Gentile church not meeting in the Jewish synagogues on the Sabbath but on the Lord’s day. We see this discrimination even in the Scripture where Jewish Christian refused to recognize Gentile believers as legitimate unless they became circumcised and come under all the laws of Judaism. This was the conflict that Acts 15 the Jerusalem council had to address. I do not think that the Jerusalem council was successful in getting all or even most Jewish Christians to recognize Gentile Christians.

        And it may be somewhat true that the church sought to distance themselves from its roots in Judaism when the Jews rebelled against Roman authority. However, the church of the first three centuries was a persecuted church. According to Fox’s book of Martyrs, many died the death at the hand of the authorities.

        None of the early church writers supported laws that were distinctly Jewish and few of them had much to do with Rome. Rome during the first 3 centuries was the church of the catacombs with no influence over other churches elsewhere in the Empire..

        Again our blessing comes from our fellowship with the Lord and those that are His; not in the observance of a particular day of the week or in what we may or may not eat.

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “The blessing you received from observance of the Sabbath day is simply the result of our worship with others as where two or three are gathered together in His name, He is in the midst of us.”

        At first sight your answer seems to be a good one, but it is based on ignorance. You seem to have a theoretical knowledge about the blessing connected with the Sabbath, but lack an experiential knowledge of the same. This is where I can be of help to you. My parents joined the Adventist community before I was born, which means that I have experienced God’s blessings derived from worshipping the Lord the way he designed for eight decades, and you want to take said blessing away from me?

        You added: “I often am filled with an indescribable joy upon worshipping the Lord – a joy very similar to that when I experienced when I was born again of His Spirit. A feeling of His presence is often with me even particularly when I pray.”

        I am glad that you can testify about the blessings connected with prayer. This does not suggest that you are an authority regarding the blessings derived from worshipping the Lord on the specific day he created and blessed for humanity. I suggest that you try keeping the Sabbath holy for the next 8 decades and then we can compare notes.
        \
        Then you said: “Where did the lord ask US Christians to remember the Sabbath? New Testament book, chapter and verse please.”

        You are making the common mistake of evangelicals. In 2 Timothy 3:16-17 Paul stated:

        “New American Standard Bible (©1995)
        All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”

        Was Paul talking about the New Testament or the Old one? He was referring to the O.T. as is evident from the following reference:

        “14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus”

        When Timothy was growing up and being instructed in the Scriptures, the N.T. had not been written yet. Paul was saying that the O.T. was “profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”

        This is were evangelicals err by assuming that all we need is to rely exclusively on what is contained in the New Testament.

        You cited: “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.”

        Yes, and we find God’s Commandments in the Old Testament, which you are setting aside to your own loss!

        You wrote: “One main issue many have with Seventh Day Adventists is what constitutes the law. I believe when the Bible speaks of law, it does not make any distinction between ceremonial, civic, or moral law. The law is the law period.”

        If what you are affirming is right, then why did the Lord make a distinction when he enshrined the Sabbath in tablets of stone and ordered Moses to place them in the most sacred place in the Sanctuary: inside the ark? Can you improve on what the Lord did? Did God ask Moses to place the other laws inside the Ark as well?

        Then you asked: “And do we fulfill the law when we love our neighbor? Romans 13:9-10 says that we do.”

        Yes, by loving our neighbor we fulfill our duty to our neighbor, but you are forgetting that we must also love God. The first four Commandments of the Laws are summed up in our love to God. This is what you are overlooking!

        Then you stated: “The scriptures tells us that the Ten Commandments is the covenant God made with Israel at Mt. Sinai.”

        Yes! Your problem is that you assume that the new covenant excludes the Sabbath. This is not what the Bible teaches. The main difference between the two covenants is that God promised to write his Law in people’s heart instead of tablets of stone:

        New International Version (©1984)
        “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” [Heb. 10:16]

        The other difference between those covenants is that the new one is based on better promises. In the first case, the people promised to obey God’s Law, and a few days later they knelt before the Golden Calf. This represents our human efforts to keep the Law of God. In contrast, the new covenant is based on God’s promise to write his Law in our hearts. There was nothing wrong with the Ten Commandments, and nothing wrong with the Sabbath the Lord created and blessed in Genesis 2.

        English Standard Version (©2001)
        But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. [Heb. 8:6]

        Clarke’s Commentary on the Bible
        Now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry – His office of priesthood is more excellent than the Levitical, because the covenant is better, and established on better promises: the old covenant referred to earthly things; the new covenant, to heavenly.
        Source: http://bible.cc/hebrews/8-6.htm

        You cited: “Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.”

        Yes! And with the new covenant the same Law is written in our hearts instead of tablets of stone.

        You cited: “Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”

        Yes, and Paul explained what he meant in Chapter 8 as follows:

        “1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,a 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.c And so he condemned sin in sinful man,d 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

        5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful mane is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mindf is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

        9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.”

        Notice what happens when God’s Law is now written in our hearts by God’s Holy Spirit. The Law is not altered, but rather written in our hearts and minds.

        Nic Samojluk

      • It is worthwhile to examine what other Christians believed regarding end times rather than what Ellen White believed in the Great Controversy.

        Question: “What is going to happen according to end times prophecy?”

        Answer: The Bible has a lot to say about the end times. Nearly every book of the Bible contains prophecy regarding the end times. Taking all of these prophecies and organizing them can be difficult. Following is a very brief summary of what the Bible declares will happen in the end times.

        Christ will remove all born-again believers from the earth in an event known as the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-54). At the judgment seat of Christ, these believers will be rewarded for good works and faithful service during their time on earth or will lose rewards, but not eternal life, for lack of service and obedience (1 Corinthians 3:11-15; 2 Corinthians 5:10).

        The Antichrist (the beast) will come into power and will sign a covenant with Israel for seven years (Daniel 9:27). This seven-year period of time is known as the “tribulation.” During the tribulation, there will be terrible wars, famines, plagues, and natural disasters. God will be pouring out His wrath against sin, evil, and wickedness. The tribulation will include the appearance of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse, and the seven seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments.

        About halfway through the seven years, the Antichrist will break the peace covenant with Israel and make war against it. The Antichrist will commit “the abomination of desolation” and set up an image of himself to be worshipped in the Jerusalem temple (Daniel 9:27; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-10), which will have been rebuilt. The second half of the tribulation is known as “the great tribulation” (Revelation 7:14) and “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7).

        At the end of the seven-year tribulation, the Antichrist will launch a final attack on Jerusalem, culminating in the battle of Armageddon. Jesus Christ will return, destroy the Antichrist and his armies, and cast them into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:11-21). Christ will then bind Satan in the Abyss for 1000 years and He will rule His earthly kingdom for this thousand-year period (Revelation 20:1-6).

        At the end of the thousand years, Satan will be released, defeated again, and then cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:7-10) for eternity. Christ then judges all unbelievers (Revelation 20:10-15) at the great white throne judgment, casting them all into the lake of fire. Christ will then usher in a new heaven and new earth and the New Jerusalem—the eternal dwelling place of believers. There will be no more sin, sorrow, or death (Revelation 21–22).

        Recommended Resource: Understanding End Times Prophecy by Paul Benware.

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “Christ will remove all born-again believers from the earth in an event known as the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-54).”

        I don’t get the doctrine of the rapture out of these texts. They are describing the second coming of Jesus Christ. I do not understand how you get such strange doctrine out of these biblical passages. Here is the first passage you cited:

        “15According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.”

        I do not see any rapture here the way it is taught by many evangelical theologians. What I have read about the secret rapture has left me unconvinced. Some years ago I purchased the book “The Late Planet Earth” and read it from cover to cover, and it sounded to me like a work of fiction instead of being the Word of God. Thousands of people being secretly raptured while driving their cars and airplanes. The passage I quoted above describes a public event instead of a secret one. You don’t sound a trumpet to announce a secret event.

        Then you said: “The Antichrist (the beast) will come into power and will sign a covenant with Israel for seven years (Daniel 9:27).

        Here is this text within its proper context: “25“Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decreef to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,g the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.h The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’i In the middle of the ‘seven’j he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

        This is a clear reference to the destruction of the city of Jerusalem. The entire prophetic period covers 70 sevens, which translated to our modern way of speaking means 490 years which were allotted for the nation of Israel of old. Pulling one week out and moving it towards the end of world history makes no logical sense to me.

        You wrote: “Jesus Christ will return, destroy the Antichrist and his armies, and cast them into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:11-21). Christ will then bind Satan in the Abyss for 1000 years and He will rule His earthly kingdom for this thousand-year period (Revelation 20:1-6).At the end of the thousand years, Satan will be released, defeated again, and then cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:7-10) for eternity.”

        You see two lakes of fire in Scripture while I see only one. You place the saints reigning with Jesus for a thousand years on the earth while I place them in heaven. For me the main final events will be in the following sequence:

        Jesus return, he takes the faithful to heaven and the sinners are destroyed by God’s glory, the saints remain in heaven for a thousand years, the heavenly Jerusalem comes down to earth, God judges the wicked and destroys them together with the Devil and his angels, and the Lord creates a new heaven and a new earth.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Good morning Lee . . I’m sorry I accidently deleted your comments about the Sabbath but would like to offer a few Scripture and comments relative to the Sabbath and the observance of it. So the above is not necessarily relative to this issue.

        The scripture I use is from the New International Version, Life Application Bible published by Tyndale House Publishers in Wheaton, IL and Zondervan Publishing House in Grand Rapids, MI . . And not an SDA published Bible.

        I offer the following:

        Genesis 2:2-3 (2) “By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested (or ceased) from all his work.
        (3) And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested (or ceased) from all the work of creating that he had done.”

        The Study Bible notes: That God blessed the seventh day means that he set it apart for holy use. This act is picked up in the Ten Commandents (Exodus 20:1-17) where God commanded the observance of the Sabbath.

        Exodus 20:8-11 (8) “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. (9) Six days you shall labor and do all your work, (10) but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. (11) For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.”

        The Study Bible notes: “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

        My note: Notice the similar wording in both Genesis & Exodus; “The Lord blessed the seventh day and made it holy.” Which means the Sabbath was created and blessed by god at the creation and was made for man and not just for the Jews for they had not come into existence until much later.

        Deuteronomy 5:12-15 Repeats the fourth commandment.

        Isaiah 58:13-14 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the Lord’s holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way or doing as you please or speaking idle words, then you will find your joy in the Lord, and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your facth Jacob.” The mouth of the Lord has spoken.

        The Study Bible notes: The day of rest should also be honored not only because Sabbath-keeping is a commandment but also because it is best for us and because it honors God. Keeping the Sabbath honors God, our Creator, who also rested on the seventh day. It also unifies our family and sets priorities for them. Our day of rest refreshes us spiritually and physically-providing time when we can gather together for worship and when we can reflect on God without the stress of our everyday activities.

        Matthew 28:1 After Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.’

        Mark 16:1-3 (1) When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. (2) Very early on the first day of the week, just after
        sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb (3) and they asked each other, “who will roll the stone away from the entrance to the tomb?’

        The Study Bible says: The women purchased the spices on Saturday evening after the Sabbath had ended so they could go to the tomb early the next morning to anoint Jesus body ………….

        Luke 24:1 “On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.”

        John 20:1 “Early on the first day of the week, while was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.”

        Mark 2:27-28 (27) Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. (28) So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

        Jesus heals a man’s hand on the Sabbath:

        Matthew 9-12 See verse 12 ……….”Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

        Mark 3:1-4 See verse 4 ………. Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evel, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

        Luke 6:1-5 See verse 5 Then Jesus said to them, The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

        Luke 6:6-11 See verse 9 Then Jesus said to them, “I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?”

        For now I close with the Three Angels message in Revelation:

        Chapter 14 Verses 6-13 But specifically verses 8-10

        (8) A second angel followed and said, “Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

        (9) A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, (10) he too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has benn poured full strength into the cup of his wrath, He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence ofthe holy angels and of the Lamb.”

        The Study Bible comments: “John, who probably did not dare speak against Rome openly, appled the name Babylon to this enemy of God’s people (Rome) and, by extension, to all God’s enemies of all times.’

        Jesus said in:

        Matthew 24:35 Mark 13:31 Luke 13:33 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.”

        Matthew 5:17-20 See verses 17-18 ……….(18) “Do you think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (18) I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”

        Revelation 22:18-19 “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God wil add to him the plagues described in this book. (19) And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of like and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

        There are many additional Scriptures to offer from both the Old and New Testaments confirming the Sabbath is still God’s Holy Day and not the first day of the week.

        The Catholic Church states that they made the change in the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

        If you write to the Vatican they will confim this statement in writing.

        God be with you Lee Jensen.

        Roger Slonaker

  24. What the ancients did is to maintain live coals as they traveled so they could ignite a fire when they needed it. In that way, they would not spend much time in preparing a fire to cook their food and provide for their warmth. Perhaps the prohibition in Exodus 35:3 really addressed the labor that may have gone into the preparation of a fire.

    There was also this law that one could not go out of his home on the Sabbath.

    To what extent many of these laws became known to the congregation as a whole and were obeyed is anyone’s guess. Since Joshua had to circumcised the Israelite males prior to crossing the Jordan indicates that many of these laws were not enforced.

  25. Mr. Jensen,

    When I traveled through out the country I always knew I could open a drawer in the hotel and could count on a Gideon Bible being there which I truly appreciated when without my Bible. I really respect the work of the Gideon’s!

    Roger Slonaker

    • Yes, the Gideon ministry has really been one that God has greatly blessed and is probably one of the most fruitful in harvesting souls for Christ.

      On an average, they place 2 copies of God’s word every 2 seconds in 190 countries – 78.9 million copies alone last year.

      I have been in that ministry for over 30 years and have either seen or have read of thousands of people coming to faith in Christ.

      There are some 12 books filled with personal testimonies from people that have written to our international headquarters at Nashville. One wonders how many could have written of their testimony but have not shared it with this ministry.

      If you are in a motel and cannot find one in one of the drawers please contact the lobby and ask as all too often many simply take the Bible with them when they check out. We have received dozens of letters telling us what has happened in people lives as a result of stealing a motel Bible.

  26. Item labeled as 5. should have been -

    The Lord wants us to remember once a week that he is our Creator, and he set aside only one day for said purpose:

  27. You wrote: “I became a vegetarian half a century ago, and my health at 80 is better than when I was 30. My parents joined Adventism and dropped their appetite for liquor and tobacco. My uncle did not and died at the age of 50.”

    Good common sense personal health care is very important if one wants to live and in good health. While you assribe you longevity to Adventism, statistically speaking Mormons also live longer and in good health.

    And those who do not smoke or drink alcoholic beverages do very well in maintaining good health. Good clean living is the answer whether it was advocated by Joseph Smith, Ellen White, or any good consultor on health.

    I am in reasonably good health, age 74, but my health problems are related more to my genetically make-up. Hypertension tends to run in the family and I was born with an incomplete aortic heart valve which has to be replaced.

    • In my case I owe a great deal to Ellen White writings for my good health. Are you suggesting that I should denigrate her writings and thank Joseph Smith instead?

      • Not at all what I am saying is that as far as your health is concerned you could have had the same thing being a good Mormon as they advocate much the same clean living. No smoking, No drinking, No cafferine or other stimulants, proper exercise and sleep, good mental attitudes, etc.

        One of the reasons Christians live longer is because of the lack of bad habits.

        Ellen White was sometimes mistaken as a Mormon because of her health message.

        You may not believe it but Adventism does not have a corner on God; it is just another institution with a founder.

      • No one a a monopoly on God’s truth!

      • No one a a monopoly on God’s truth!

        While true it is obvious that some denominations possess more truth than others and that is the reason I like the more Biblically oriented denominations instead of the mainline institutional denomination that have collected bad doctrines over time like a snowball rolling down a hill picking up more dirt as it nears the bottom of the hill.

  28. [1] “Dr. Bacchiocchi’s Criticism on Ellen White’s Book The Great Controversy, Provided with Notes and Some Additional Information to the Contrary by Pastor J. Voerman,” pp. 19–21, available at: http://www.lampofgold.com/Waldenses.pdf.

    In his response to Samuele Bacchiocchi, retired pastor Jan Voerman has included two pages from a rare book written by Paul Beuzart, which describe from documents preserved in the archives at Arras the execution of a group of Waldenses in northern France and what their “heresies” were. The documents clearly indicate that the group required the celebration of Saturday rather than Sunday: “Ils voulaient célébrer le Samedi au lieu du dimanche et méprisaient l’Église. [They wanted to celebrate on Saturday instead of Sunday and scorned the Church.]“

    • Was this in response to my comments or those of someone else?

      • Was this in response to my comments or those of someone else?

        Since the original subject of this thread was the Great Controversy, I felt that the website would be helpful to your thinking. It does address the view that the Waldensians and Sabbath observance- something that was discussed on this forum.

    • Hi, Lee. You might want to put a reference on the quotation about Pastor Voerman. It’s on page 162 of WHITE LIE SOAP, which I will soon be publishing. (Kevin L. Morgan)

      • Nic, to reply to your recent comment -

        the quote from the Great Controversy by Ellen White is the following:

        “Through ages of darkness and apostasy there were Waldenses who denied the supremacy of Rome, who rejected image worship as idolatry, and who kept the true Sabbath. Under the fiercest tempests of oppositions they maintained their faith.” (page 65)

        ”Some of whom [Waldenses] were observers of the Sabbath.” (page 577)

        But the article by Voerman has the following statement. “Note that she does not say that all Waldenses kept Sabbath. No, no, she only writes: there were Waldenses… How many? She does not specify that most of them kept the true Sabbath, and therefore she does not suggest here that Sabbath keeping was common among the Waldenses.

        What is misleading is that the reader who quotes her from page 65 would immediately assume that she believed Sabbahth keeping was common to the Waldensians..

        Why did Ellen White thereafter make a limiting statement on page 577? Was she really unsure of her previous statement.

        In any case, what evidence do we have that any significant number of Waldensians observed the Sabbath for such a statement to be made.

        And sadly, we cannot find anything from the modern day Waldensians that supports the view that any of their ancestors observed the Sabbath?

      • Nic, the quote from the Great Controversy by Ellen White is the following:

        Through ages of darkness and apostasy there were Waldenses who denied the supremacy of Rome, who rejected image worship as idolatry, and who kept the true Sabbath. Under the fiercest tempests of oppositions they maintained their faith. (page 65)

        Some of whom [Waldenses] were observers of the Sabbath. (page 577)

        @ But the article by Voerman has the following statement. Note that she does not say that all Waldenses kept Sabbath. No, no, she only writes: there were WaldensesK How many? She does not specify that most of them kept the true Sabbath, and therefore she does not suggest here that Sabbath keeping was common among the Waldenses.

        What is misleading is that the reader who quotes her from page 65 would immediately assume that she believed all the Waldensians observed the Sabbath; not just the few.

        Why did Ellen White thereafter make a limiting statement on page 577? Was she really unsure of her previous statement.

        In any case, what evidence do we have that any significant number of Waldensians observed the Sabbath for such a statement to be made.

        And sadly, we cannot find anything from the modern day Waldensians that supports the view that any of their ancestors observed the Sabbath? lee jensen . Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 01:05:02 +0000 To: riolion@msn.com

      • Lee,

        a friend of mine married a girl who was a descendant of the waldenses. She had no problem converting to Adventism because her family kept the Sabbath.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Interesting! however, if we can believe their own history of the Waldensians, keeping the OT Sabbath was not the norm. But Ellen seems to want us to believe it was. And that is the problem.

      • Lee,

        you worry about this? You should rather worry about the real contradictions found in the Bible. Here are two classic examples: Who hardened the heart of Pharaoh, God or Satan? And who incited King David to perform a military census, God or Satan? These contradictory statements are in the Old Testament.

        Nic Samojluk

      • I don’t read her statement as anything more than the existence of Sabbatarianism among the Waldenses. There is no grand claim that it was the majority or even widespread. “Through ages of darkness and apostasy, *there were Waldenses* who denied the supremacy of Rome, who rejected image worship as idolatry, and *who kept the true Sabbath*.”

        Working on the premise that there were sabbatarians in Europe, J. N. Andrews put out advertisements to Sabbath observers in various countries. He got in touch with many sabbatarians who had no connection with Seventh-day Adventists. I realize this is anecdotal, but, it, together with the reports from various sources about Waldensian sabbatarianism, validates her statement.

        Kevin L. Morgan

      • Kevin,

        Thanks for sharing this information with us!

        God bless!

        Nic Samojluk

      • Nic – while a mnority of the Waldensians may have observed the OT Sabbath, there has always been a few in just about any group that observed the Saturday Sabbath. However, I still say that Ellen White ‘s statement that the Waldensians observed the Sabbath is still misleading. I would also question your opinion that those who obsersed the OT Sabbath actually held to the truth as rejected by the Church of Rome. They may in fact, been heretical in some of their other practices or beliefs.

        Did God or Satan cause Pharoah to have a heart that was harden?

        I believe our answer is found in the New Testament. Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

        The Lord rules over the affairs of man, even using Satan or evil itself for His own purpose.

        9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?

        We need be careful not impose our sense of righteousness unto God.

      • Lee,

        I am amazed that you are imposing stricter demands on Ellen White than on the Bible! This means that God incited King David to perform a military census and after David obeyed God’s order, God punished him for doing what he was told to do. The same applies to the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart.

        This I cannot accept. regardless of who tries to explain this. God cannot demand that I sin in order to punish me for doing so! Paul used this example to establish God’s sovereignity, but he was wrong. Calvinists think that he was right, while Arminians reject this erroneous doctrine.

        Nic Samojluk

      • //This I cannot accept. regardless of who tries to explain this. God cannot demand that I sin in order to punish me for doing so!

        **Whoa thar! God is not the author of sin; nor does He compel anyone to sin. The Bible says we are accountable for our own actions. However, God did chose someone like Judas whose heart He knew would betray His Son. And olde Pharaoh was brought up with a value system that would demand he to do what he did.

        //Paul used this example to establish God’s sovereignty, but he was wrong.

        If you truly believe that then you would have to question Who penned the Scripture. Was it Paul that was wrong or simply our interpretation that is in question?

        Again we need be careful that we do not impose our value system onto God.

        19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
        20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
        21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?

        //Calvinists think that he was right, while Arminians reject this erroneous doctrine.

        The problem we find is in the interpretation of what Calvin believed in regard to God’s sovereignty.

        On the other hand, what he believed was based upon scripture and was basically the same position on this issue as other church theologians, especially Augustine.

        How do we get around such blunt statement of Scripture as -18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. ????

        One can really get into an endless and futile debate on to what extend man have been given FREE WILL.

        While Ellen held much the same doctrine on justification as others what she really did was to contradict the works of others in believing justification as something one could lose. This is much the same position as Roman Catholicism in that justification could be restore thru the sacrament of penance.

      • Lee,

        I conclude from your comments that you believe that God did in fact incite David to perform a military census and once he did what the Lord had incited him to do God punished him for following the Lord’s directive. This is anathema in my book!

        Nic Samojluk

      • Perhaps another website you may wish to examine regarding whethe God or Satan tempted David is at -

        http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=784

        I think this website is more exhaustive than the previous one I sent you.

        If you cannot believe the Bible, why on earth do you chose to believe Ellen White. According to her theology Jesus sinned when He ate meat.

      • Lee,

        Here is a quote form the article you provided a link for: “God is spoken of as having incited David because He allowed such temptation to take place.”

        Do we have the right to sanitize the Bible in order to make it conform with our cherished doctrines? The same Hebrew word is used in both cases and the incitement for David to perform a census is atributed to God in one case and to Satan in the other. There is no way to avoid the contradiction. This is the problem those who stick to verbal inspiration of the Bible are faced with, and they looose credibility with honest people who refuse to accept what makes no common sense.

        I believe in thought inspiration but not in verbal isnpiration. God is not revealed in the Bible as the author. The words and the style used in writing the Bible belongs to those who wrote them. This is the reason we have four Gospels. Had the Lord dictated the story of Jesus, we would have had only one
        Gospel instead of four. The same can be said about the Epistles.

        Nic Samojluk

      • <<According to her theology Jesus sinned when He ate meat.

        GC 595 would come in handy here.

        But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms.

        Notice the difference she makes between doctrines and reforms. Reforms adapt to time and circumstance. Doctrines remain constant.

        Kevin L. Morgan

      • Kevin,

        Can you provide us with the actual quote within its proper context?

        Nic Samojluk

      • >>Can you provide us with the actual quote within its proper context?

        >>Nic Samojluk

        context: Chapter title, “The Scriptures a Safeguard”

        But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority–not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain “Thus saith the Lord” in its support. {GC 595.1}

        Doctrines and reforms–two things.

      • Kevin,

        The reference I was asking for is the following: “According to her theology Jesus sinned when He ate meat.”

        Perhaps you were quoting Lee, in which case it would be his duty to provide the source for the quote!

        Nic Samojluk

      • >>The reference I was asking for is the following: “According to her theology Jesus sinned when He ate meat.” Perhaps you were quoting Lee, in which case it would be his duty to provide the source for the quote!

        Nic,

        Sorry for the confusion I have brought on this subject. I should have snipped his whole comment in context: “If you cannot believe the Bible, why on earth do you chose to Ellen White. According to her theology Jesus sinned when He ate meat.”

        I do not agree that Jesus sinned in eating meat. My interest in looking at GC 595 was to understand Ellen White’s “theology.” Since this is a thread about The Great Controversy, it is doubly significant here.

        “But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms.”

        According to this statement, reforms are in a different category from doctrines. The basis for “health reform” is found in 1 Cor. 3:16–believers in Christ are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Eating good food is an extension of that truth. But, neither Jesus nor Ellen White were sinners because they ate meat. Lee is mistaken on that point.

      • Ellen White truly believe that what we eat was really the cause of evil

        Under subject heading of “Inducing Causes of Immorality”

        “If ever there was a time that the diet should be of the most simple kind, it is now. MEAT should NOT be placed before our children. Its influence is to excite and strengthen the lower (sexual) passions, and has a tendency to deaden the moral powers…The less feverish the diet, the more easily can the passions be controlled.” (T.V.II, p. 352)

        “You place upon your tables butter, eggs, and MEAT, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions (sexual), and then you come to meetings and ask God to bless and save your children.” T.V. II , p. 140

        Interesting that today her writings even those that speak of her diet plans, are authoritative and have their source in God Himself!

        Me thinks that today most people would view Ellen as some sort of fruitcake regarding some of her views.

      • Lee,

        You said the following in an earlier post: ““According to her theology Jesus sinned when He ate meat.” …”

        How can you apply what Ellen wrote to the situation two millenia ago. Let me illustrate this as follows: You might have read that sometimes fish is contaminated with harmful chemicals. Can we conclude from this that Jesus sinned because he ate fish? Jesus did not eat the fish of today!

        When Ellen was alive, she claimed that many animals were infected with cancerous tumors. Jesus did not eat the meat people were eating when she was alive. You seemed to have been rather quick in jumping to unwarranted conclusions!

        Nic Samojluk

      • Nik//When Ellen was alive, she claimed that many animals were infected with cancerous tumors. Jesus did not eat the meat people were eating when she was alive. You seemed to have been rather quick in jumping to unwarranted conclusions!

        However, you are still STUCK with the premise that Ellen White was a divine prophet and that her writings whatever they may be, are authoritative.

        It states that under Article #18 SDA Fundamental beliefs. “As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction.”

        The bottom line for the SDA is that if Ellen White stated it, it has to be from God. Nearly every Adventist church teaches that.

        Clearly, the Adventist Church would be far better off if they would simply dump Ellen White and get on to fulfilling the Great Commission. Otherwise, you and others will continue to excuse her writings by putting qualifiers on ter statements.

      • Lee,

        Your advice is unwise! Ellen’s writings have done a lot to advance God’s kingdon and the Gospel in the world. She was not perfect, and what she wrote was not dictateed to her by God. She was merely inspired to write for the benefit of posterity, and she did this quite well.

        Nic Samojluk

      • //Your advice is unwise! Ellen’s writings have done a lot to advance God’s kingdom and the Gospel in the world.

        I disagree as I read that many who become converts to Adventist simply leave during the first 5 years. and that I suspect is because of the over-emphasis on the writings of Ellen White. Let’s face it, she is even controversial among those that are Adventists today.

        //She was not perfect, and what she wrote was not dictated to her by God.

        In the eyes of the fundamentalist Adventists your belief that what she wrote was not dictated by God would be heresy. Remember that she wrote what she saw in her visions. The problem there is that there were many other women that had visions during that radical religious upheaval of the early 1800;s. Even today there are those that experience visions, but we should beware and keep our focus on Biblical doctrine.

        //She was merely inspired to write for the benefit of posterity, and she did this quite well.

        And you also may correctly conclude that both her and her husband James made a fairly large financial fortunate from her “inspired books”.

      • Lee,

        Yes, and she used said fortune to help build schools, medical facilities, and to assist needy students to advance in their goal of securing an education.

        When she died, she had a negative worth amounting to $25,000 thousand dollars which took many years to pay off. Her heart was in the advance of God’s kingdom.

        And do not forget that a century ago the purchasing p-ower of $25,000 dollars was much greater than today. She had borrowed said funds to advance God’s cause on earth.

        Nic Samojluk

      • “Ellen White truly believe that what we eat was really the cause of evil.”

        I’m not sure that is the case. The CAUSE of evil starts WITHIN. It is the heart that defiles a man (Mark 7:20). Then again, DESIRING food that “excites and strengthens the passions” and that “has a tendency to deaden the moral powers” is something that comes from WITHIN. I don’t know how “fruit cakie” it can be to consider that what we eat affects how we behave. The only one who might consider it such is the person who plugs his ears so he can eat what he wants.

        Don’t tell me that excess hormones don’t affect how one reacts under provocation and temptation. If it is true that “roid rage” can be caused by taking large doses of steroids, would not the ingestion of smaller doses of animal steroids also have an effect?

      • //Ellen White truly believe that what we eat was really the cause of evil.”

        She very plainly believed that one tended to become immortal by what they eat especially meat. Of course, while she advocated that her followers adhere to her strict diet, she herself ate meat on many occasions, even oysters she ordered from one of her relatives. \\

        During her time most of the country was still rural and meat was appropriated not at the market place as much as it was directly from the farm. On the place I was born and raised we had an ice house buried in the ground and every winter, they chopped ice out of the river to stock the ice house where they keep perishables.

        //I’m not sure that is the case.

        Only if you do not believe what she plainly wrote.

        //The CAUSE of evil starts WITHIN. It is the heart that defiles a man (Mark 7:20). Then again, DESIRING food that “excites and strengthens the passions” and that “has a tendency to deaden the moral powers” is something that comes from WITHIN.

        True that it is what comes from the heart – the desire – that defiles the person; not what is put into the stomach. I think Jesus made that abundantly clear in both Mark 7:29 and Matthew 15:19. Even the eating of unclean or contaminated foods will not tend to cause one to become immoral. Doubtful if anyone could make any argument to the contrary.

        //I don’t know how “fruit-cakie” it can be to consider that what we eat affects how we behave. The only one who might consider it such is the person who plugs his ears so he can eat what he wants.

        Well I suppose that people that eat like pigs and become fat will be found guilty of gluttony and find themselves in an early grave – suicide by eating too much foods. I usually turn off fairly fast when I see a fat preacher on TV. This is one sin that we seldom hear preached against.

        //Don’t tell me that excess hormones don’t affect how one reacts under provocation and temptation. If it is true that “road rage” can be caused by taking large doses of steroids, would not the ingestion of smaller doses of animal steroids also have an effect?

        It is true that scientists have discovered that certain temperaments such as angry, worry, fear and other kinds of emotion does contribute to excessive and harmful hormones being created in the body. As to animal steroids, this can be a problem but the bottom line, is that an individual is still responsible for ones own moral behavior.

      • Lee,

        I approved your posting out of courtesy; but my interest in continuing this conversation in this topic which is so consuming for you is zero!

        You seem to be fixated in finding fault with a woman who, in spite of her lack of a formal education, was able, through the grace of God, to become a remarkable and prolific writer.

        Thousands were able to come to Christ thanks to her books. I am wondering who is inspiring you to carry out this iconoclastic and shameful work. I am convinced that it cannot be the God of heaven!

        Nic Samojluk

      • //I approved your posting out of courtesy; but my interest in continuing this conversation in this topic which is so consuming for you is zero!

        Ok, I will let you off the hook as I realize that Ellen White who has been the subject of much controversy simply cannot be adequately defended.

        //You seem to be fixated in finding fault with a woman who, in spite of her lack of a formal education, was able, through the grace of God, to become a remarkable and prolific writer. Thousands were able to come to Christ thanks to her books.

        I believe on one of your comments you mentioned that Ellen did much to copy from the works of others. In that regard, the works of Christians writers may very well be much to the spiritual welfare of others. But that still does not answer why most converts to Adventism are gone within the first 5 years.

      • Lee,

        Your comment ignores that Jesus Christ had a similar experience following his feeding of the five thousand. The crowd which was following him diwindled to basically his disciples, and Jesus was forced to ask: Are you ready to leave too? To which Peter anwered: You have words of life! Are you ready to apply the same criticism to Jesus because most of Jesus converts abandoned him?

        Nic Samojluk

      • Nik stated: Your comment ignores that Jesus Christ had a similar experience following his feeding of the five thousand. The crowd which was following him dwindled to basically his disciples, and Jesus was forced to ask: Are you ready to leave too? Too which Peter answered: You have words of life! Are you ready to apply the same criticism to Jesus because most of Jesus converts abandoned him?
        —–
        What you are incorrectly referring to is when Jesus told the crowd that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood in order to have life. John 6 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you…. After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
        So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.

        But your founder did not have the words of eternal life, so why would anyone want to follow her?

        Bear with me on one more question and then I will let you go do what you wish.

        Ellen claimed that the Sabbath commandment was the most important commandment of them all. If it was of any real importance, then why O’ why was it not mentioned anywhere in the New Covenant? Did the Holy Spirit forget to have it penned in Scripture?

        Perhaps Ellen in referring to other Christians as being from Babylon never got over the hurt she probably felt in getting booted out of a church because they refused to believe in her visions or the message as proclaimed by William Miller.

      • Lee,

        Incorrectly? Read the entire chapter! The chapter starts with the feeding of the multitude and ends with the desertion of Jesus by the crowd.

        You claim that Ellen did not have “words of life.” If she didn’t, then you don’t either and no evangelist ever did either. It would be hard to find another religious writer who has cited the Bible and Jesus Christ more profusely than she did.

        My answer to your last question is: The Holy Spirit did not specifically repeat the Sabbath Commandment verbatim in the NT for two reasons: The proselites were familiar with the Jewish observance of the Sabbath, and because the Lord knew that people like you needed an excuse to ignore one of the Ten Rules of human behavior he gave to humanity.

        P.S.: I hope you remember that my name is not NIK but rather NIC.

      • Amen, Nic . . .

        Roger

      • nik -Who incited King David to number the people of Israel? In 2 Samuel 24:1 we read it was God but in 1 Chr. 21:1 we read it was Satan.

        I put this question on one of the Christian forum to see what kind of answers I will get. If you want to follow along, reference Christianet. com

      • Lee,

        First, let me remind you that my name is spelled with a “c.”

        I did try to locate the site you named without success. Can you provide a direct link to it instead.

        Nic Samojluk

      • the site you need to reference is

        http://www.christianet.com/

        The site has a few novices and a few that are very skilled in Bible. Also a couple or 3 SDAs.

      • Lee,

        The link leads me to the site, but not to the specific issue we were discussing!

        Nic Samojluk

      • Re: http://www.christianet.com/

        Nik, they just entered the subject today concerning the census of Davie.

        See “King David Counted People”

        Enjoy!

      • Lee,

        First and foremost: My name is Nic–not Nik.

        Second, did you click on the link you provided for me? When I do that, I do not get anything dealing with King David’s military census!

        Nic Samojluk

      • Nic – try http://christianblogs.christianet.com/questions.htm

        and reference King David counted people.

      • Lee,

        The explanation given by the source you provided makes things evern worse. Notice the following comment:

        “we see that it was God’s purpose and will that David will count Israel”

        Can you believe this? God wanted King David to sin. David did what the Lord wanted him to do, and the Lord punished him for doing God’s will!

        Is this the kind of Gospel you preach? If this is the kind of God you worship, no wonder there are so many agnostics and atheists in the world!

        Abraham said to God: “Will not the judge of all the earth do what is right?” Common sense demand a yes to this question, nevertheless you believe that God did move David to do wrong and then punished him for obeying his voice.

        This is a good example of the wrong conclusions the belief in verbal dictation of the Bible leads to!

        Nic Samojluk

      • //The explanation provided source you provided makes things even worse. Notice the following comment: “we see that it was God’s purpose and will that David will count Israel”

        Christianet.com is a forum where many expresses their viewpoint however, some of the responders clearly know little of the Bible. Some are ministers but most are laypeople. Some give good answers; some do not. But many do indeed provide a good insight into what the Bible is teaching.

        //Can you believe this? God wanted King David to sin. King did what the Lord wanted him to do, and the Lord punished him for doing God’s will!

        Finding God guilty of causing others to sin? No, that would cause a conflict with those scriptures that are very plain. I think you really need to find a better interpretation. God is a holy God and there is no evil within Him.

        //Is this the kind of Gospel you preach? If this is the kind of God you worship, no wonder there are so many agnostics and atheists in the world!

        And the agnostic and atheists will take a single verse out of the Bible and use it to reject anything else the Bible may say. You should not make the same mistake.

        //Abraham said to God: “Will not the judge of all the earth do what is right?”

        God will be the ultimate judge and the most righteous. No one will be able to defend themselves by any stretch of the imagination or by any human reasoning. Some find that God is a bad god because He caused the death of “innocent” children in Sodom and Gomorrah. And worst yet, He commanded Israel to totally exterminate all the inhabitants of Canaan.

        //Common sense demand a yes to this question, nevertheless you believe that God did move David to do wrong and then punished him for obeying his voice.

        No, I do not believe God causes anyone to sin. You are setting yourself up as a judge of God Himself.

        //This is a good example of the wrong conclusions the belief in verbal dictation of the Bible lead to!

        The Bible Lone Rangers usually would arrive at the wrong conclusions as they depend upon their own limited and “infallible” interpretation of the Bible.

        It should suffice to say that our faith is in Christ and we simply do not or cannot understand everything nor do we really need to. We leave the things we do not understand to others or for further study.

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “No, I do not believe God causes anyone to sin. ”

        If you do not believe that God causes anyone to sin, then you are tacitly admitting that it was not God who incited King David to sin, but rather Satan. This implies that the inerrant view of Scripture is based on a wrong premise.

        God did not dictate the content of the Bible word for word, but rather inspired holy men to record for posterity certain historical events, but they used their own words and their own style in describing such events.

        The Lord uses imperfect people to build up his kingdom. The Lord used my parents to build up my faith in God and his providence, but this did not make my parents infallible. Holy men of God do not become infallible the moment they sit down to write Scripture.

        Nic Samojluk

      • //While Ellen held much the same doctrine on justification as others what she really did was to contradict the works of others in believing justification as something one could lose. This is much the same position as Roman Catholicism in that justification could be restore thru the sacrament of penance.

        She was compelled to do so because of Scripture. There are several passages that describe those who have been forgiven being judged afterward. In fact, Paul’s statement about the *bma* (judgment seat) of Christ is about accountability of the believer (2 Cor. 5:10)–whether good or bad (not good or not so good).

      • A selection from my soon-to-be-published book:

        Another judgment, based on a faulty assumption, is that she taught that all Waldenses were Sabbath observers, when she wrote:

        Through ages of darkness and apostasy, *there were Waldenses* who denied the supremacy of Rome, who rejected image worship as idolatry, and *who kept the true Sabbath*. Under the fiercest tempests of opposition they maintained their faith. Though gashed by the Savoyard spear, and scorched by the Romish fagot, they stood unflinchingly for Gods Word and his honor. (GC88 65.1) Her statement, as written, is correct. If someone did not catch the limited nature of the statement, she also wrote, A striking illustration of Romes policy toward those who disagree with her was given in the long and bloody persecution of the Waldenses, *some of whom were observers of the Sabbath* (GC 577.3, emphasis supplied). In response to the charge that no Waldenses were Sabbath observers, Pastor Jan Voerman has cited two pages from a rare book written by Paul Beuzart, which use documents preserved in the archives at Arras to describe the execution of a group of Waldenses in northern France and their heresies. These pages clearly indicate that the group celebrated Saturday rather than Sunday, *Ils voulaient clbrer le Samedi au lieu du dimanche et mprisaient lglise*. [They wanted to celebrate on Saturday instead of Sunday and scorned the Church.] (Voerman, Dr. Bacchiocchis Criticism on Ellen Whites Book *The Great Controversy*, Provided with Notes and Some Additional Information to the Contrary by Pastor J. Voerman, pp. 1921).

        Pastor Kevin L. Morgan Warrensville Seventh-day Adventist Church and Honor Him Publishing

  29. Lee, You wrote: “The blessing you received from observance of the Sabbath day is simply the result of our worship with others as where two or three are gathered together in His name, He is in the midst of us.” At first sight your answer seems to be a good one, but it is based on ignorance.

    **Ignorance? Certainly not of the Scripture – something that I have been a student of for the past 50 years. It is written “For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” Matthew 18:20

    When one comes to know Jesus as Lord and Savior that person become a new creation. 2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

    In that the believer becomes a part of the family of God and thus comes under the discipline of God the Father.

    Hebrews 12: 6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

    Nik, if you have not tasted of His discipline chances are you have only a religion but are not a child of His. One does not reach complete maturity as a Christian upon being born of His Spirit.

    Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you first came to believe in Jesus as the Christ?

    For me it was one that was totally shattering as it changed the total direction of my life but also came with an indescribable joy. And that has been a COMMON testimony of many others.

    And may I ask you if after becoming a Christian you became fruitful?

    I have had a few tell me that I led them to faith in Christ. And as I stated before, my calling was to a Bible distributing society and I have seen the Lord working through the Word that I distributed both her and overseas.

    My wife’s principle teacher explained that she always thought she was a Christian for years but after receiving a testament from us (my wife or myself, I do not recall), she found that she really was not.

    John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

    Can you really honestly say that you hear the voice of God? Or may it be that of another?

    As to sin in ones life, and it may not even be a listed sin as there may be something in your life that should not be there, God’s Spirit seeks to remove it. Like the Apostle Paul, we can agree that we will not reach perfection in our lifetime.
    The Apostle John tells us -

    1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    And the Apostle Paul laments -

    Romans 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.

    And that is what the doctrine of Sanctification is all about. We do not perfect ourselves as the only thing we can do is to cooperate with God’s Spirit when He works within us.

    I am certain that you are a very moral and upright person, but such does not count if you are in the flesh and have not the Spirit within you.

    2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

    You seem to have a theoretical knowledge about the blessing connected with the Sabbath, but lack an experiential knowledge of the same. This is where I can be of help to you.
    My parents joined the Adventist community before I was born, which means that I have experienced God’s blessings derived from worshipping the Lord the way he designed for eight decades, and you want to take said blessing away from me?

    **No, as the observance of any day of the week is really a matter of choice. I disagree with the Adventist view that Romans 14 is addressed to a certain group at Rome that was having problems with food and observances of Jewish feast days. The day you observe is totally in line with your convictions as was the situation with Jewish Christians; but not with mine. It is much the same issue as with the Levitical dietary laws. While you cannot have ham on your table as unclean food in your conviction is defiling, I believe the very words of Jesus in Matthew 15:17f, and Mark 7:19f that what defiles one is from the heart not what goes into the stomach.
    —————-
    You added: “I often am filled with an indescribable joy upon worshipping the Lord – a joy very similar to that when I experienced when I was born again of His Spirit. A feeling of His presence is often with me even particularly when I pray.” I am glad that you can testify about the blessings connected with prayer. This does not suggest that you are an authority regarding the blessings derived from worshipping the Lord on the specific day he created and blessed for humanity. I suggest that you try keeping the Sabbath holy for the next 8 decades and then we can compare notes.

    **I do not believe God hears the prayers of those that do not belong to Him. However, I cannot recall a single prayer of mine that has not been answered. If we pray in accordance to His will, we will always receive an answer. Furthermore, Romans 8:26-27 tells us that it is the Spirit that aid us when we pray and often we do not know what our prayers will even be.

    Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

    No, I do not feel that such prayers are necessarily in an unknown tongue, but what we see is a guidance as we pray. I see too much immorality associated with the tongue movement.

    In any case, I find the Christian life one of interesting and sometimes exciting experience. It is one of intimate fellowship with the Living Lord. And yes, if the Scripture had a command to observe the Sabbath, I would have communal worship on Saturdays assuming of course, that the church is not dead spiritually.

    There are many in our churches today (even if the church preaches the gospel) that are nominal or cultural Christians. While they are usually very good and moral people, they really do not really have Christ in their lives. We do not condemn them but share the scripture with them and give them our testimonies.

    I went to a Roman Catholic funeral of a person I knew this morning. Instead of listening to the repetitious prayers to the Virgin Mary, I decided to better spend the time reading my testament. I opened it at random and read Matthew 8:22 And Jesus said “Let the dead bury their dead”. Am not sure, what the Lord was trying to tell me but all too often all what some people have is religion. And the pits of hell await them.
    ————–
    Then you said: “Where did the lord ask US Christians to remember the Sabbath? New Testament book, chapter and verse please.” You are making the common mistake of evangelicals. In 2 Timothy 3:16-17 Paul stated:” New American Standard Bible (©1995) All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” Was Paul talking about the New Testament or the Old one? He was referring to the O.T. as is evident from the following reference: “14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus” When Timothy was growing up and being instructed in the Scriptures, the N.T. had not been written yet. Paul was saying that the O.T. was “profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” This is were evangelicals err by assuming that all we need is to rely exclusively on what is contained in the New Testament.

    ***While 2 Timothy 3:16-17 does tell us that all scripture is profitable for teaching, for reproof, etc. and the scripture here being the OT scripture, it does not imply that we are to become proselytes to Judaism; that we have to observe all of its 613 laws. We are expected to rightfully divide the word of truth.

    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    ————-
    You cited: “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.” Yes, and we find God’s Commandments in the Old Testament, which you are setting aside to your own loss!

    **At what loss? There are over 600 commandments in the Old Testament, but the New Covenant tells us what ones are applicable. Adventism does not make any distinction between the commands or laws found in the Old Covenant that that of the New. As such, perhaps you should join a Messianic congregation, get yourself circumcised and go full barrel on everything not just selected things in the Old Covenant. If you want to be an Old Covenant Christian then that is really the way to go.
    ———-
    You wrote: “One main issue many have with Seventh Day Adventists is what constitutes the law. I believe when the Bible speaks of law, it does not make any distinction between ceremonial, civic, or moral law. The law is the law period.” If what you are affirming is right, then why did the Lord make a distinction when he enshrined the Sabbath in tablets of stone and ordered Moses to place them in the most sacred place in the Sanctuary inside the ark?
    **Not all the tenets in the Old Covenant were passed onward to the New Covenant “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” Romans 10:4
    If you were to obey ALL the law, ALL the time, then you would be justified (declared righteous) but scripture tells us that we cannot become righteous by obedience to the law.
    Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
    ————–
    Can you improve on what the Lord did? Did God ask Moses to place the other laws inside the Ark as well? Then you asked: “And do we fulfill the law when we love our neighbor? Romans 13:9-10 says that we do.” Yes, by loving our neighbor we fulfill our duty to our neighbor, but you are forgetting that we must also love God. The first four Commandments of the Laws are summed up in our love to God. This is what you are overlooking! Then you stated: “The scriptures tells us that the Ten Commandments is the covenant God made with Israel at Mt. Sinai.” Yes! Your problem is that you assume that the new covenant excludes the Sabbath. This is not what the Bible teaches.
    **I do not ASSUME since there is virtually nothing in the New Covenant that even hints of a command for the church to observe the OT Sabbath. The Sabbath belongs to the Hebrew people only in the Old Covenant dispensation.
    —————-
    The main difference between the two covenants is that God promised to write his Law in people’s heart instead of tablets of stone: New International Version (©1984) “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” [Heb. 10:16] The other difference between those covenants is that the new one is based on better promises.
    **Hebrews 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

    Perhaps Barnes notes would help you understand what the verse says –

    Which was established upon better promises. The promises in the first covenant pertained mainly to the present life. They were promises of length of days; of increase of numbers; of seed-time and harvest; of national privileges; and of extraordinary peace, abundance, and prosperity. That there was also the promise of eternal life it would be wrong to doubt; but this was not the main thing. In the new covenant, however, the promise of spiritual blessings becomes the principal thing. The mind is directed to heaven; the heart is cheered with the hopes of immortal life; the favor of God and the anticipation of heaven are secured in the most ample and solemn manner.
    ———
    In the first case, the people promised to obey God’s Law, and a few days later they knelt before the Golden Calf. This represents our human efforts to keep the Law of God.
    **The law only served the purpose of revealing what sin was.

    Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified (declared righteous) in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
    Again, the Bible does NOT make any distinctions as to types of law. One sins either by breaking moral law, or the law of Moses, or any other law that may be applicable.

    The Christian is to walk by faith in God’s Spirit (Romans 1:17, Gal. 3:11, Php. 3:9 ) and accept the fact that the righteousness of the Christian is the righteousness in Christ imputed to them.

    Php. 3:8-11 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
    —————–
    In contrast, the new covenant is based on God’s promise to write his Law in our hearts. There was nothing wrong with the Ten Commandments, and nothing wrong with the Sabbath the Lord created and blessed in Genesis 2. English Standard Version (©2001) But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. [Heb. 8:6] Clarke’s Commentary on the Bible Now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry – His office of priesthood is more excellent than the Levitical, because the covenant is better, and established on better promises: the old covenant referred to earthly things; the new covenant, to heavenly. Source: http://bible.cc/hebrews/8-6.htm
    **The main difference between the Old Covenant dispensation and that of the New, is the former was one of the ministry of death & condemnation craved on letters of stone, whereas the New is the more glorious ministry of the Spirit.

    You cited: “Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.” Yes! And with the new covenant the same Law is written in our hearts instead of tablets of stone. You cited: “Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.” Yes, and Paul explained what he meant in Chapter 8 as follows: “1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, a 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering’s And so he condemned sin in sinful mind 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. 5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful mane is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.” Notice what happens when God’s Law is now written in our hearts by God’s Holy Spirit. The Law is not altered, but rather written in our hearts and minds.
    Nic Samojluk

    ** The phrase “the Spirit of life” in 8:2 means the Holy Spirit producing or giving life; i.e. giving peace, joy, activity, salvation; in opposition to the law, spoken of in chapter 7, that produced death and condemnation. Again I am inclined to believe Barnes notes has the correct interpretation.

    • Lee,

      The main issue we are discussing is the observance of the Sabbath. My argument is that the Sabbath was created and set apart at the beginning, thousand of years before the first Jew set foot on earth. Since I was born into an Adventist family, this means that I am the recipient of the blessing connected with the observance of the Sabbath for 80 years.

      You attempted to credit the blessing I have received to the joy of meeting with other fellow Christians: “The blessing you received from observance of the Sabbath day is simply the result of our worship with others as where two or three are gathered together in His name, He is in the midst of us.”

      I responded by attributing your explanation to ignorance of the blessings derived from worshipping the Lord according to his will, and you opted for providing me evidence of your conversion and your joy of serving the Lord.

      I think that we are talking past each other. How can you judge correctly the source of my joy if you seem to have never observed the Sabbath as a special day which the Lord set apart for our good? Can someone who has never been married and has never experienced the joys connected with marriage and parenthood speak with authority about these life events?

      Can someone who has never worked with the Gideons talk with eloquence about the happiness connected with the distribution of Bibles around the world? I have worked as a literature evangelist and have distributed thousands of Christian books and Bibles, and what I say about my experience will sound credible, but I would not venture to talk about what I have never experienced like working for the Gdeon Bible distribution.

      I conclude that your opinion regarding the source of my joy of keeping the Sabbath holy is based on ignorance and you should humbly admit this. If you want to question or deny my experience, then you should savor first the blessing associated with Sabbath observance for and extended period of time like I have and then we con compare notes and argue over this with the proper credence.

      Nic Samojluk

    • Lee,

      You made a series of comments questioning my Christian experience, my conversion, my Christian growth, and my receipt of the Holy Spirit followed by a Bible study about the same. I will ignore said comments. Since you are in touch with the H.S., you can ask him to answer such questions for you. He is a faithful witness and will not lie to you.

      *********
      You wrote: “It is one of intimate fellowship with the Living Lord. And yes, if the Scripture had a command to observe the Sabbath, I would have communal worship on Saturdays assuming of course, that the church is not dead spiritually.”

      Perhaps you would, or perhaps you wouldn’t. Those who rejected Jesus as the promised Messiah asked for a sign. Jesus turned water into wine, but they thought that this was not enough; he fed five thousand with two loaves of bread, but they reasoned that this was no big deal: this miracle looked like small potatoes when compared with what Moses did when he fed the Israelites with manna—not one meal, but three meals a day for 40 years; then Jesus healed the sick and raised the daughter of Jairus, but they reasoned: didn’t he say that she was sleeping?

      Then Jesus raised Lazarus who had had been dead for four days, but they attributed this miracle to the power of Beelzebub. Finally, Jesus came back from the tomb, but they said: his disciples must have stolen his body while the soldiers were asleep. I conclude that no amount of evidence was sufficient to convince them that Jesus was in fact the promised Messiah. Using the Old Testament, they could prove that the true Messiah would liberate them from their enemies.

      Likewise, very likely no amount of evidence will convince evangelicals that the Sabbath is the day the Lord provided for humanity as a reminder that the Lord created the heavens and the earth in seven days with his great power and divine authority. The problem is not lack of evidence, but a lack of faith.

      The Lord created the Sabbath, he set it apart for a sacred purpose, and he blessed it. He enshrined the Sabbath in the Decalogue, he wrote it with his own finger on tablets of stone, he commanded Moses to place those Ten Rules for human behavior inside the Ark of the Covenant to make sure the Sabbath would not be confused with the ceremonial Sabbaths.

      God rested on the Seventh day of creation, he blessed said day, he kept the Sabbath according to the Commandment, he rested on the Sabbath following his crucifixion, and he told his followers to pray that their flight would not take during the holy hours of the Sabbath.

      In spite of all this, you argue that this is not enough. This reminds me of the unmarried couple who where on a date and the Devil tempted them to have sex. They were Christians, so they knelt down and asked the Lord to show them why they should avoid following the strong urge they had for a sexual encounter. Since the Lord failed to provide them with a response, they went ahead and had sex.

      *********
      You stated: “While 2 Timothy 3:16-17 does tell us that all scripture is profitable for teaching, for reproof, etc. and the scripture here being the OT scripture, it does not imply that we are to become proselytes to Judaism; that we have to observe all of its 613 laws. We are expected to rightfully divide the word of truth.”

      The Lord does not expect you to observe 613 laws, bur rather only one containing Ten Rules, four of them showing our love for God and the other six our love toward others.

      *********
      You cited: “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” Romans 10:4”

      Does this mean that I can now steal, murder, and lie with impunity?

      *********
      You also cited: “Rom. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

      The function of the Law is to reveal the sin in our life, which prompts us to seek repentance and forgiveness. Once forgiven, we show our love towards God and towards our fellow men! By keeping the first four precepts of the Decalogue, we show our love for God; and by keeping the last six we demonstrate our love towards others. All this is through Christ who empowers us to obey his commands. The same power which created the heavens and the earth creates in us a desire to do God’s will.

      The Law acts like a moral mirror, but looking in the mirror is not enough; we need soap and water to clean ourselves. This is where God’s power comes in. The Lord not only forgives our past sins, but he enables us to live according to his will.

      *********
      You wrote: “The Sabbath belongs to the Hebrew people only in the Old Covenant dispensation.”

      Did God create and set aside the Sabbath in the desert or at the end of creation week?

      Nic Samojluk

  30. Nic What I presented you regarding the second coming of Christ at the end of times was from -

    http://www.gotquestions.org/questions_end-times.html

    While I have studied the Adventists viewpoint on the end times, I feel that all too many depends upon a convoluted interpretation of Scripture much on the same level as other failed predictions.

    Any good student of the history of religions would seen that there has been literally hundreds of predictions over the last 20 centuries as to the date of the coming of Christ. All they all failed to understand that scripture that “no man knows the hour or the day” as that is sometime only the Father knows.

    If you believe in the Adventist theory that you are really on the same shelf as the Jehovah’s Witnesses (the founder Charles Taze Russell was a student of the Seventh Day Adventists) who predicted based upon interpretation of scripture that Jesus would return in 1874,1914,1918,1920,1925,1941,1975, etc. and when He did not in 1914, they concocted this story that Jesus came invisibly to establish His one true Church, the Kingdom Hall.

    Seventh Day Adventists have done much the same thing in predicting from the Scripture that Jesus would return in 1843, then they changed that to 1844 October 22. When Jesus did not return, they concocted this view that something happened in the heavenly – that Jesus left the Fathers side and went into the Holy of Holies to begin judgment. All they did was make fools out of people that should have known better. I bet the devil really had a laugh on that one.

    There was a book out a few years ago that predicted Jesus would return in 1988. A friend of mine read it and stated that the author had made a very convincing view again using scripture that Christ would return. But again, nothing happened. “88 Reasons why the Rapture is in 1988” by Edgar Whisenant (the guy made a bundle of $$$ from his book and went to the bank several times to make his deposits.)

    For the top 10 predictions concerning the second coming of Christ view the website.

    listverse.com/2008/09/18/top-10-failed-apocalyptic-predictions/ – 159k

    see also -

    http://www.raptureready.com/rr-date-setters.html

    In order to subscribe to the Adventist view of end times and its eschatology, one would have to believe that the Seventh Day Adventist church was given some kind of special anointing by God that was hidden from others.

    But we can see that all too much of their interpretation of scripture is based upon the supposedly divine visions of Ellen White, a poorly educated woman who had suffered head injury as a child and got caught up in the religious hysteria of her day.

    It is interesting that the interpretation of end times by these early followers of Miller (Miller himself, Crosier and others) rejected the interpretation of the end times.

    You only believe in it because you really want to.

    So I would hold from my reading of scripture that no one can know the hour or day Christ will come again for His church. All we do know is that when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled that will happen. Luke 21:4.

    Who knows tomorrow may very well end in your demise.

    • Lee,

      You wrote: “If you believe in the Adventist theory that you are really on the same shelf as the Jehovah’s Witnesses (the founder Charles Taze Russell was a student of the Seventh Day Adventists) who predicted based upon interpretation of scripture that Jesus would return in 1874,1914,1918,1920,1925,1941,1975, etc. and when He did not in 1914, they concocted this story that Jesus came invisibly to establish His one true Church, the Kingdom Hall.”

      One of the differences between the Adventist movement and that Jehovah Witnesses is that the former made a mistake and learned from it, while J.W. kept making the same mistake over and over. Ellen White wrote that we should never again set a date for the second coming of Jesus.

      *********
      You also wrote: “But we can see that all too much of their interpretation of scripture is based upon the supposedly divine visions of Ellen White, a poorly educated woman who had suffered head injury as a child and got caught up in the religious hysteria of her day.”

      Ellen White did receive some visions from above, but she also borrowed extensively from other authors and sometimes it is difficult to determine which writings were the direct results of her visions. This is why the official position of the church is that our primary source for doctrine should be the Bible.

      Personally, I accept from Ellen White what can be firmly established on Scripture; and whenever I cannot do this, I hold to my personal interpretation of God’s Word. On certain doctrinal issues, my views are diametrically opposed to that of my church. A good example is that of abortion. I am pro-life, while my church is pro-choice.

      I do not believe that Jesus moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary in 1844, but that he sat on the right hand of God immediately following his ascension; I have a divergent view of the Trinity from the official Adventist position, and my views about eschatology differs from that of the majority of Adventists.

      We do have a set of Fundamental Beliefs, but it slightly differs from a creed because we continue to study the Bible with the understanding that such FB is subject to change as a result of study of Scripture, and I am working towards this end. I did publish a book recently towards this objective, and I have the support of some Adventist teachers and theologians. Time will tell if my contribution to the Adventist belief system will benefit from this effort of mine.

      I have a unique view of the prophecy found in the 8th chapter of the book of Daniel. If you are interested, I can share it with view sometime.

      Nic Samojluk

  31. Lee, The main issue we are discussing is the observance of the Sabbath. My argument is that the Sabbath was created and set apart at the beginning, thousand of years before the first Jew set foot on earth
    **While true, the Sabbath was based on the rest of God at Creation. However, those that have come to believe in Christ have entered into that rest depicted by God at Creation. Hebrews 4. Thus the rest of God became much more than the observance of a day.
    —–
    Since I was born into an Adventist family, this means that I am the recipient of the blessing connected with the observance of the Sabbath for 80 years. You attempted to credit the blessing I have received to the joy of meeting with other fellow Christians: “The blessing you received from observance of the Sabbath day is simply the result of our worship with others as where two or three are gathered together in His name, He is in the midst of us.”

    **Yes, There can be no greater joy than to be with the Living God and with those that belong to Him.

    While you proclaim the day of rest after Creation, the Sabbath was given only to the nation of Israel to observe. No other peoples observed it. It has only real meaning for the nation of Israel. I would suppose that if nearly all your working hours were spent in gathering straw and mixing it with clay in making bricks under the whips of taskmasters, you would have even a greater appreciation of the Sabbath, especially as a day of rest from regular employment.

    De 5:15 You shall remember that you (THE HEBREWS PEOPLE)were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. THEREFORE the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

    And again, we can see nothing in the New Covenant that commands the observance of any day. To many including those that are Jewish will believe that the Sabbath as a command only has meaning for them as it celebrated the view that Israel was enslaved in Egypt.
    **********
    I responded by attributing your explanation to ignorance of the blessings derived from worshipping the Lord according to his will, and you opted for providing me evidence of your conversion and your joy of serving the Lord. I think that we are talking past each other. How can you judge correctly the source of my joy if you seem to have never observed the Sabbath as a special day which the Lord set apart for our good?
    *********
    **There can be no greater joy than to be with the Living God and with those that belong to Him, and that should be done when the people of God gather together. For the Christian that is usually the Lord’s Day as the Sabbath really belongs to the people of Israel. It is His Spirit that works among the people to minister to you and to others.
    —————

    Can someone who has never been married and has never experienced the joys connected with marriage and parenthood speak with authority about these life events? Can someone who has never worked with the Gideons talk with eloquence about the happiness connected with the distribution of Bibles around the world? I have worked as a literature evangelist and have distributed thousands of Christian books and Bibles, and what I say about my experience will sound credible, but I would not venture to talk about what I have never experienced like working for the Gideon Bible distribution.

    **Ever experience sky diving? How about mountain climbing? To those that have done those things, it is a joy that they alone can experience. But I would not see anything of them that really appeals to me.

    Marriage, on the other hand, to many that have chosen the wrong partner is really a hellish thing; not at all joyous. The newness of marriage wears off almost as fast as the dew disappears with the sun. It is really an experience that has its plusses as well as its minuses, it good time as well as the bad.

    The joy of being active in the Gideon ministry is much the same as it is with witnessing for Christ, either sowing the seed or being involved in the harvest.
    ———-
    I conclude that your opinion regarding the source of my joy of keeping the Sabbath holy is based on ignorance and you should humbly admit this.

    **I would conclude that your joy in keeping any day as holy is really something of the flesh as the flesh loves loves loves religion and the rituals that are embedded in them. The Roman Catholic churches really has an edge over others in this regard.
    ——
    If you want to question or deny my experience, then you should savor first the blessing associated with Sabbath observance for and extended period of time like I have and then we con compare notes and argue over this with the proper credence.

    **Maybe if you tried to be a Roman Catholic for 6 months you would have an appreciation of the rituals they employ – many of them reflected back on something in the Bible or in their church. I was an Episcopalian (high church) for about 3 years and can identify with what they do.

    Try it and you will like it’ viewpoint really has no appeal as it is from the heart as well as the mind that one believes. In today’s world the Sabbath really has no other meaning than to go to church either on Saturday or Sunday as well as a day of regular employment. Many churches today are filled not with those in whom the Spirit of God indwells, but with the cultural Christians who know little or nothing of Gods word and have no testimony to share with others. Why should we not expect an Adventist church to be any different? Please do that tell me that have a corner on the truth that others do not.

    • Lee,

      You wrote: “While true, the Sabbath was based on the rest of God at Creation. However, those that have come to believe in Christ have entered into that rest depicted by God at Creation. Hebrews 4. Thus the rest of God became much more than the observance of a day.”

      The fact that the Sabbath has also a symbolic meaning does not deny its original and primordial purpose for the human race. Here are several translations of the passage found in Genesis 2:2-3.

      GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
      “By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing. On the seventh day he stopped the work he had been doing.”

      GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
      “Then God blessed the seventh day and set it apart as holy, because on that day he stopped all his work of creation.”

      World English Bible
      “God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy, because he rested in it from all his work which he had created and made.”

      Young’s Literal Translation
      “And God blesseth the seventh day, and sanctifieth it, for in it He hath ceased from all His work which God had prepared for making.”

      We see here that God stopped what he had been doing, he blessed the Sabbath, and set it apart as holy. When God sets something or someone apart for a holy purpose, this means that the object must be used accordingly. You argue that the Sabbath is a symbol of the rest we find in Christ. How can the Sabbath be a symbol if you don’t use it? Can our U.S. Flag be a symbol if we don’t use it? Can your wedding day be a symbol if you do not celebrated it? Can your wedding ring be really meaningful if you don’t use it? I read several commentaries of these texts and all of them agree with my natural and logical interpretation. Here is a sample:

      *********
      Barnes’ Notes on the Bible
      “Thirdly, he blessed the seventh day. Blessing results in the bestowment of some good on the object blessed. The only good that can be bestowed on a portion of time is to dedicate it to a noble use, a special and pleasing enjoyment.”
      Notice the emphasis on use!

      *********_
      Clarke’s Commentary on the Bible
      “How wise is this provision! It is essentially necessary, not only to the body of man, but to all the animals employed in his service: take this away and the labor is too great, both man and beast would fail under it. Without this consecrated day religion itself would fail, and the human mind, becoming sensualized, would soon forget its origin and end. …”

      Precisely! Humans neglected the Sabbath and made room for the theory of evolution. The Sabbath was designed to remind us on a weekly basis that we are the product of God’s creative act as described in Genesis.

      “Because that in it he had rested – שבת shabath, he rested; hence Sabbath, the name of the seventh day, signifying a day of rest – rest to the body from labor and toil, and rest to the soul from all worldly care and anxieties. He who labors with his mind by worldly schemes and plans on the Sabbath day is as culpable as he who labors with his hands in his accustomed calling. It is by the authority of God that the Sabbath is set apart for rest and religious purposes, as the six days of the week are appointed for labor.”

      Notice the emphasis on the religious purpose of this day of physical rest.

      ________________________________________
      Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible
      “And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it,…. A day in which he took delight and pleasure, having finished all his works, and resting from them, and looking over them as very good; and so he pronounced this day a good and happy day, and “sanctified” or appointed it in his mind to be a day separated from others, for holy service and worship;”

      Holy service and worship is different from something esoteric and merely symbolic.

      ________________________________________
      Geneva Study Bible
      “And God blessed the seventh day, and {c} sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
      (c) Appointed it to be kept holy, that man might in it consider the excellency of his works and God’s goodness toward him.”

      Again, the stress is on the Sabbath as a reminder of God’s works. And do not forget that God did never bless Sunday, or Friday, but only the seventh day!

      Nic Samojluk

      • I believe your arguments for observing the Sabbath are very good ones and you do well if you observe that day to the Lord. Your conviction should be fully respected.

        Romans 14:6a GWV When people observe a special day, they observe it to honor the Lord.

        However, the main barrier to its observance is still the acknowledged fact that there is nothing in the New covenant that mandates the observance of the Sabbath.

        I believe that the Jerusalem council Acts 15 did not mandate that Gentile believers had to observe any laws that was peculiarly Jewish in nature. While the Sabbath reflects on the creation rest, it was given only to the Israelite nation at Mt. Sinai as a SIGN of the covenant God made only with them, a covenant that became obsolete with the introduction of the New Covenant.

        Exodus 31:17 It is a sign forever between me (God) and the PEOPLE OF ISRAEL that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.”’

        Hebrews 8:13 ESV 13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

        I would suspect that if the early church would have observed the Sabbath as well as the Levitical dietary laws, then most likely they would have been recognized simply as just another Jewish sect and persecuted to the extent that the Jews themselves were.

        While Adam Clarke was not a Sabbaterians, his commentary on Romans 14 does to a large extent support your viewpoint.
        -
        That the Sabbath is of lasting obligation may be reasonably concluded from its institution (See Clarke on Genesis 2:3.) and from its typical reference. All allow that the Sabbath is a type of that rest in glory which remains for the people of God. Now, all types are intended to continue in full force till the antitype, or thing signified, take place; consequently, the Sabbath will continue in force till the consummation of all things. The word alike should not be added; nor is it acknowledged by any MS. or ancient version.

        Notes on Chapter 14
        It seems very likely, from this and the following chapter, that there were considerable misunderstandings between the Jewish and Gentile Christians at Rome, relative to certain customs which were sacredly observed by the one and disregarded by the other. The principal subject of dispute was concerning meats and days. The converted Jew, retaining a veneration for the law of Moses, abstained from certain meats, and was observant of certain days; while the converted Gentile, understanding that the Christian religion laid him under no obligations to such ceremonial points, had no regard to either. It appears, farther, that mutual censures and uncharitable judgments prevailed among them, and that brotherly love and mutual forbearance did not generally prevail. The apostle, in this part of his epistle, exhorts that in such things, not essential to religion, and in which both parties, in their different way of thinking, might have an honest meaning, and serious regard to God, difference of sentiments might not hinder Christian fellowship and love; but that they would mutually forbear each other, make candid allowance, and especially not carry their Gospel liberty so far as to prejudice a weak brother, a Jewish Christian, against the Gospel itself, and tempt him to renounce Christianity. His rules and exhortations are still of great use, and happy would the Christian world be if they were more generally practised. See Dr. Taylor, who farther remarks, that it is probable St. Paul learned all these particulars from Aquila and Priscilla, who were lately come from Rome, Acts 18:2,3, and with whom the apostle was familiar for a considerable time. This is very likely, as there is no evidence that he had any other intercourse with the Church at Rome.

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “However, the main barrier to its observance is still the acknowledged fact that there is nothing in the New covenant that mandates the observance of the Sabbath.”

        You are confusing the New Covenant with the New Testament. The promise of a new covenant was made in the Old Testament and the reference was to God’s Law contained in the O.T., which meant that it is the Decalogue containing the Sabbath Commandment that would be written in the hearts of believers. The alleged barrier was artificially created by human beings and not by God.

        Do not forget the promise God made to the gentiles who would in the future accept the Lord as their God:

        6And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD
        to serve him,
        to love the name of the LORD,
        and to worship him,
        all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
        and who hold fast to my covenant—
        7these I will bring to my holy mountain
        and give them joy in my house of prayer.
        Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
        will be accepted on my altar;
        for my house will be called
        a house of prayer for all nations.” [Is. 56]

        This promise was made by God with you and me in mind. This passage clearly indicates that the Sabbath was designed for all humanity. The message is straightforward and crystal clear. The Sabbath was meant to be a blessing for all the human race.

        *********
        You said: “I believe that the Jerusalem council Acts 15 did not mandate that Gentile believers had to observe any laws that was peculiarly Jewish in nature.”

        Do you really believe that the list we find in Acts 15 represents an exhaustive enumeration of moral and religious duties expected from gentile converts? Is whatever behavior not mentioned there acceptable for us?

        Nic Samojluk

    • Lee,

      You wrote: “While you proclaim the day of rest after Creation, the Sabbath was given only to the nation of Israel to observe.”

      Please, read my previous response to you! The Sabbath was created, blessed, and set apart not when Moses was leading the Israelites to the Promised Land but rather at the end of the creation week. And Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for men—not for the Jews.

      Moses introduced the Sabbath observance with the word “Remember.” You can’t remember something you knew nothing about.

      *********
      You also wrote: “I would suppose that if nearly all your working hours were spent in gathering straw and mixing it with clay in making bricks under the whips of taskmasters, you would have even a greater appreciation of the Sabbath, especially as a day of rest from regular employment.”

      Of course. When the Israelites were reduced to slavery, they were forced to work seven days a week, and they were deprived of the freedom to worship God on the seventh day. But when they free in the desert, Moses told them to “Remember” the Sabbath day.

      *********

      You stated: “There can be no greater joy than to be with the Living God and with those that belong to Him, and that should be done when the people of God gather together.”

      Not exactly! There is greater joy when we follow God’s way of worshipping him. Remember that Cain decided to worship God his own way, and the result was a tragic one. Likewise, King Saul decided to deviate from what he was instructed to do, and he was severely reprimanded by Samuel the prophet.

      *********
      You wrote: “Ever experience sky diving? How about mountain climbing? To those that have done those things, it is a joy that they alone can experience. But I would not see anything of them that really appeals to me.”

      If worshipping the Lord the way he designed has no appeal to you, then there might be something wrong with your religious experience.

      *********
      Then you stated: “I would conclude that your joy in keeping any day as holy is really something of the flesh as the flesh loves religion and the rituals that are embedded in them.”

      I agree! “keeping any day as holy is really something of the flesh.” This is why I do not keep “any day” of my own choosing as holy, but rather the day the Lord chose for humanity as a day of rest and worship.

      *********
      You ended with: “Please do that tell me that have a corner on the truth that others do not.”

      I agree! No one has a corner on truth. Catholics do have a corner on abortion; Baptists have a corner on Baptism by immersion; Orthodox do have a corner on the importance of the resurrection; Gideons have a corner on Bible distribution; and Adventist have a corner on the Sabbath; but no one has a corner on the whole Truth.

      Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, You wrote: “While you proclaim the day of rest after Creation, the Sabbath was given only to the nation of Israel to observe.” Please, read my previous response to you! The Sabbath was created, blessed, and set apart not when Moses was leading the Israelites to the Promised Land but rather at the end of the creation week.

        **But the Sabbath was never given as a COMMAND to observe until the time of Moses. And it is a command only in the Old Covenant; not in the New Covenant. Perhaps its fulfillment was in the rest of the believer in Christ. Hebrews 4 seems to allude to that.
        ————-
        And Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for men—not for the Jews.

        **Yes, all the law was made for the good of man; not the other way around. However Mark 2:27 is NOT a command to observe the Sabbath.

        We need to consider the context of the verse. The scene was one in which the disciples being hungry were accused of breaking the Sabbath by picking grain as they walked thru the field. Jesus pointed out that since David was not condemned for eating the consecrated bread, they should not condemn the disciples for breaking the law of Moses as human need comes first.

        Interesting that this story comes directly after the parables of the cloth and wineskins each having the implication that what was distinctly Old Covenant should not be brought into the New Covenant. The new wine was the new covenant and the old wineskins the old covenant, the two are not compatible. In the same since the new cloth path represents the new covenant and should not be sewn into the old cloth of the old Covenant.

        Moses introduced the Sabbath observance with the word “Remember.” You can’t remember something you knew nothing about. You also wrote: “I would suppose that if nearly all your working hours were spent in gathering straw and mixing it with clay in making bricks under the whips of taskmasters, you would have even a greater appreciation of the Sabbath, especially as a day of rest from regular employment.” Of course. When the Israelites were reduced to slavery, they were forced to work seven days a week, and they were deprived of the freedom to worship God on the seventh day. But when they free in the desert, Moses told them to “Remember” the Sabbath day.
        —-
        **“Remember the Sabbath“, in the sense that one should not forget to observe it in the future. When “God made a covenant with Noah, He promised to remember it (Genesis 9:15).
        —-
        You stated: “There can be no greater joy than to be with the Living God and with those that belong to Him, and that should be done when the people of God gather together.” Not exactly! There is greater joy when we follow God’s way of worshipping him. Remember that Cain decided to worship God his own way, and the result was a tragic one. Likewise, King Saul decided to deviate from what he was instructed to do, and he was severely reprimanded by Samuel the prophet.
        ——–
        We are to worship God in spirit and in truth and that everyday not just on a certain day of the week.

        John 4:23-24 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

        The Jews had dozens of rule on how the Sabbath was to be observed and we would have much the same problems if we mandated that God must be worship only in a certain way. While ritual in worship has its place, to impose such onto all that worship would be much like what the Jews did with sabbath observance.

        Ellen White mandated that one may not stand while in prayer –

        But as I beheld him standing upright upon his feet while his lips were about to open in prayer to God, my soul was stirred within me to give him an open rebuke. Calling him by name, I said, ‘Get down upon your knees.’ This is the proper position always.” (Selected Messages, Vol. 2, p. 311)

        But she later contradicted herself.
        ————
        You wrote: “Ever experience sky diving? How about mountain climbing? To those that have done those things, it is a joy that they alone can experience. But I would not see anything of them that really appeals to me.” If worshipping the Lord the way he designed has no appeal to you, then there might be something wrong with your religious experience.
        **Again the way we worship God is in spirit and truth. There is no set day or form.
        —–
        Then you stated: “I would conclude that your joy in keeping any day as holy is really something of the flesh as the flesh loves religion and the rituals that are embedded in them.” I agree! “keeping any day as holy is really something of the flesh.” This is why I do not keep “any day” of my own choosing as holy, but rather the day the Lord chose for humanity as a day of rest and worship.

        **Has the Lord given us a distinct day we must have communal worship? The Sabbath was merely a day of rest from regular employment but became a day of worship. Nowhere in the New Covenant is there any command to worship on any day. All we have is Hebrews 10:25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

        You ended with: “Please do that tell me that have a corner on the truth that others do not.” I agree! No one has a corner on truth. Catholics do have a corner on abortion; Baptists have a corner on Baptism by immersion; Orthodox do have a corner on the importance of the resurrection; Gideons have a corner on Bible distribution; and Adventist have a corner on the Sabbath; but no one has a corner on the whole Truth.

        The Gideons do not have a corner of Bible Distribution as the Bible Societies actually distributed more Bible than the Gideons do. Hopefully if the Adventists get into distribution of the Bible they will use a version that is doctrinally unbiased.

        I believe many would consider observing the OT Sabbath if those churches that keep the Sabbath were doctrinally sound. The biggest barrier in Adventism I believe is olde Ellen White and doctrinally, the sanctuary and Investigative judgment beliefs.

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “But the Sabbath was never given as a COMMAND to observe until the time of Moses.”

        Do you really believe that the argument from silence is a valid one? The only direct command we find given to Adam and Eve was regarding the eating from the forbidden tree. Does this mean that all other sins were permitted?

        There is no record of a command given to Cain and Abel to offer a lamb as an offering to the Lord. Cain offered some fruits instead of a lamb and his offer was rejected. Was it wrong for God to reject his offering since there is no record of what the Lord wanted?

        Do you believe that The Bible contains an exhaustive record of all the communications between himself and the human race?

        *********
        You said: “Remember the Sabbath“, in the sense that one should not forget to observe it in the future.”

        You assumption is definitely wrong. Have you read what Moses told the Israelites in chapter 16 of Exodus—four chapters before the giving of the Law? Here it is:

        28Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long will youc refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? 29Bear in mind that the LORD has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out.” 30So the people rested on the seventh day.”

        How could Moses accuse the Israelites of refusing to keep his commandment including the Sabbath if he had not yet given them the Ten Commandments? It is evident that they were familiar with God’s Commandments and God’s Sabbath requirement before the giving of the Law and the writing of the Ten Precepts on tablets of stone.

        Can you deny this? This tends to destroy all your arguments negating the validity of God’s Sabbath for humanity. The Sabbath was not given for the Jews only, but to the human race.

        *********
        You wrote: “The Jews had dozens of rules on how the Sabbath was to be observed and we would have much the same problems if we mandated that God must be worship only in a certain way.”

        Jesus showed by precept and by example the correct way of keeping the
        Sabbath.

        *********
        You said: “Has the Lord given us a distinct day we must have communal worship? The Sabbath was merely a day of rest from regular employment but became a day of worship.”

        The Lord set the Sabbath apart. What do you think he set it apart for? My view is that the purpose was that we would remember who created heavens and earth and us. Remembering the acts of God is an act of worship.

        *********
        You stated: “The Gideons do not have a corner of Bible Distribution as the Bible Societies actually distributed more Bible than the Gideons do.”

        In math I learned that any geometrical figure has more than one corner. One corner is held by the Bible Society and another one by the Gideons.

  32. Lee, You wrote: “If you believe in the Adventist theory that you are really on the same shelf as the Jehovah’s Witnesses (the founder Charles Taze Russell was a student of the Seventh Day Adventists) who predicted based upon interpretation of scripture that Jesus would return in 1874,1914,1918,1920,1925,1941,1975, etc. and when He did not in 1914, they concocted this story that Jesus came invisibly to establish His one true Church, the Kingdom Hall.”

    One of the differences between the Adventist movement and that Jehovah Witnesses is that the former made a mistake and learned from it, while J.W. kept making the same mistake over and over. Ellen White wrote that we should never again set a date for the second coming of Jesus.

    **She did, however, predict that Christ would come again before all the people at the 1856 conference would die.

    1850 My accompanying angel said, ‘Time is almost finished. Get ready, get ready, get ready.’ . . . now time is almost finished. . . and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months.” (Early Writings, pp. 64-67)

    1856 “I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: ‘Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.’” Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 131

    She made other statements to the effect that the second coming was imminent. But what should bother you is that she credited them to what her “accompanying angel” told her.

    Re: http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw35.htm
    ————-
    You also wrote: “But we can see that all too much of their interpretation of scripture is based upon the supposedly divine visions of Ellen White, a poorly educated woman who had suffered head injury as a child and got caught up in the religious hysteria of her day.”

    Ellen White did receive some visions from above, but she also borrowed extensively from other authors and sometimes it is difficult to determine which writings were the direct results of her visions. This is why the official position of the church is that our primary source for doctrine should be the Bible. Personally, I accept from Ellen White what can be firmly established on Scripture; and whenever I cannot do this, I hold to my personal interpretation of God’s Word. On certain doctrinal issues, my views are diametrically opposed to that of my church. A good example is that of abortion. I am pro-life, while my church is pro-choice. I do not believe that Jesus moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary in 1844, but that he sat on the right hand of God immediately following his ascension; I have a divergent view of the Trinity from the official Adventist position, and my views about eschatology differs from that of the majority of Adventists. We do have a set of Fundamental Beliefs, but it slightly differs from a creed because we continue to study the Bible with the understanding that such FB is subject to change as a result of study of Scripture, and I am working towards this end. I did publish a book recently towards this objective, and I have the support of some Adventist teachers and theologians. Time will tell if my contribution to the Adventist belief system will benefit from this effort of mine. I have a unique view of the prophecy found in the 8th chapter of the book of Daniel. If you are interested, I can share it with view sometime. Nic Samojluk

    **Very good, however you should realize that even some SDA ministers has their preaching credential removed because they did not subscribe to the main pillar of Adventism, namely the sanctuary or Investigative Judgment tenets. The purge that occurred in the 1980’s saw the removal of many that were theologians, college professors, and others. There is less freedom in Adventism as to Biblical interpretation than in most other denominations.

    • Lee,

      You wrote: “She did, however, predict that Christ would come again before all the people at the 1856 conference would die.”

      Yes, she did! Did I say that she was infallible? Did she set a date? She did believe that the second coming was around the corner, but she is not alone in this belief. Early Christians also believed the same. My dad believed likewise, and I am still convinced that he was one of the finest Christians I have ever known.

      *********
      You said: “She made other statements to the effect that the second coming was imminent.”

      I do not see any basic difference between what she wrote and what the New Testament writers stated regarding the imminence of the second coming.

      *********
      You added: “But what should bother you is that she credited them to what her “accompanying angel” told her.”

      It doesn’t bother me! She might have misinterpreted what the angel actually told her. It wouldn’t be the first time, especially since this took place in the early part of her ministry when she was rather inexperienced. She also misinterpreted the vision about the shut door.

      *********
      You ended with: “The purge that occurred in the 1980’s saw the removal of many that were theologians, college professors, and others. There is less freedom in Adventism as to Biblical interpretation than in most other denominations.”

      Does this invalidate my personal beliefs the way I described them to you in my posting?

    • Lee,

      You wrote: “She did, however, predict that Christ would come again before all the people at the 1856 conference would die.”

      Yes, she did! Did I say that she was infallible? Did she set a date? She did believe that the second coming was around the corner, but she is not alone in this belief. Early Christians also believed the same. My dad believed likewise, and I am still convinced that he was one of the finest Christians I have ever known.

      *********
      You said: “She made other statements to the effect that the second coming was imminent.”

      I do not see any basic difference between what she wrote and what the New Testament writers stated regarding the imminence of the second coming.

      *********
      You added: “But what should bother you is that she credited them to what her “accompanying angel” told her.”

      It doesn’t bother me! She might have misinterpreted what the angel actually told her. It wouldn’t be the first time, especially since this took place in the early part of her ministry when she was rather inexperienced. She also misinterpreted the vision about the shut door.

      *********
      You ended with: “The purge that occurred in the 1980’s saw the removal of many that were theologians, college professors, and others. There is less freedom in Adventism as to Biblical interpretation than in most other denominations.”

      Does this invalidate my personal beliefs the way I described them to you in my posting?

  33. Lee, You wrote: “But the Sabbath was never given as a COMMAND to observe until the time of Moses.” Do you really believe that the argument from silence is a valid one?

    **We base our doctrinal beliefs not on silence but upon something tangible. But Adventists really base their belief on silence that the Sabbath was observed prior to the time of Moses. Since we see virtually nothing in antiquity that indicates a Sabbath, it is only logical to believe that it did not exist.

    The only direct command we find given to Adam and Eve was regarding the eating from the forbidden tree. Does this mean that all other sins were permitted?

    **Again, morality was inherent in human make-up as they were created in the image of God. Sin existed in the world long before the law was given.

    There is no record of a command given to Cain and Abel to offer a lamb as an offering to the Lord. Cain offered some fruits instead of a lamb and his offer was rejected. Was it wrong for God to reject his offering since there is no record of what the Lord wanted?

    **there is nothing in antiquity that would tell us how these forms of worship came into being. Before things were written down, there was oral traditions.

    Do you believe that The Bible contains an exhaustive record of all the communications between himself and the human race?

    **No, however as Christians we need heed the the guidance of the Spirit in our walk of faith.

    You said: “Remember the Sabbath“, in the sense that one should not forget to observe it in the future.” You assumption is definitely wrong. Have you read what Moses told the Israelites in chapter 16 of Exodus—four chapters before the giving of the Law? Here it is: 28Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long will you refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? 29Bear in mind that the LORD has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out.” 30So the people rested on the seventh day.” How could Moses accuse the Israelites of refusing to keep his commandment including the Sabbath if he had not yet given them the Ten Commandments? It is evident that they were familiar with God’s Commandments and God’s Sabbath requirement before the giving of the Law and the writing of the Ten Precepts on tablets of stone. Can you deny this? This tends to destroy all your arguments negating the validity of God’s Sabbath for humanity. The Sabbath was not given for the Jews only, but to the human race.

    **Obviously the content of the law was something known to Moses as a result of his relationship with God. But we see virtually nothing of a Sabbath prior to the time of Moses.

    You wrote: “The Jews had dozens of rules on how the Sabbath was to be observed and we would have much the same problems if we mandated that God must be worship only in a certain way.” Jesus showed by precept and by example the correct way of keeping the Sabbath.

    **True to those under that covenant. We see from the dialogue in Mark 2:27-28 “And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”; that Jesus was telling His Jewish audience the intent of the law; that the law as made for the benefit of man, not the other way around. Basic human needs such as hunger supersede the law and Jesus pointed that out by the story of David eating the showbread of which the law forbid him to do.
    ————
    You said: “Has the Lord given us a distinct day we must have communal worship? The Sabbath was merely a day of rest from regular employment but became a day of worship.” The Lord set the Sabbath apart. What do you think he set it apart for? My view is that the purpose was that we would remember who created heavens and earth and us. Remembering the acts of God is an act of worship.

    **Probably because the Sabbath was given as a law for the nation of Israel to keep them separate from other peoples. God, however, did not command His church to observe the Sabbath; we can see that in the New Testament.
    ———-
    You stated: “The Gideons do not have a corner of Bible Distribution as the Bible Societies actually distributed more Bible than the Gideons do.” In math I learned that any geometrical figure has more than one corner. One corner is held by the Bible Society and another one by the Gideons.
    **I believe that the Word of God has been the main instrument in bringing people to a saving faith in Christ.

    • Lee,

      You wrote: “But Adventists really base their belief on silence that the Sabbath was observed prior to the time of Moses.”

      Moses complained that the Israelites were not observing God’s Commandment nor his Sabbath in chapter 16 of Exodus, which is four chapters before the giving of the Law to Moses. Here is what he said:

      “How long will you refuse to keep my commands and my instructions?”

      If they were not familiar with God’s Law or the Sabbath, how could Moses accuse them for violating said commands?

      *********
      You stated: “There is nothing in antiquity that would tell us how these forms of worship came into being. Before things were written down, there was oral traditions.”

      Of course! Since you are granting that Cain must have violated an oral tradition regarding sacrifices, it follows that there must have been other instructions from the Lord, including the Sabbath command.

      *********
      You affirmed: “Obviously the content of the law was something known to Moses as a result of his relationship with God. But we see virtually nothing of a Sabbath prior to the time of Moses.”

      You are wrong again! Read what I found regarding Abraham. And do not forget that Abraham lived 400 years before Moses:

      King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
      “Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”

      Notice that the list includes commandments, statutes and laws. You already granted the existence of oral tradition. Here is a confirmation of the fact that human beings were familiar with what God expected from human beings.

      *********
      You wrote: “God, however, did not command His church to observe the Sabbath; we can see that in the New Testament.”

      We are supposed to follow the example set by Jesus, and he did observe the Sabbath. He also told his followers to pray thet their flight from Jerusalem would take place on the Sabbath day.

      • Perhaps you did not understand what I stated that the Sabbath was not know PRIOR to the time of Moses. I did not say that the Sabbath was unknown prior to Mt. Sinai. Exodus 16 does not imply that the Sabbath was known as a command prior to Mt. Sinai. For your consideration -

        Harold H. P. Dressler, Associate Professor of Biblical Studies Northwest Baptist Theological College, Vancover, B.C. “The Sabbath in the Old Testament”, has this comment on Exodus 16.

        Exodus 16:22-30 The first occurrence of the word and concept of the Sabbath is found here; the passage allows the view that the institution of the Sabbath was unknown to the people of Israel at this time. Their sojourn in Egypt has taught them a 10 day “week”. Hence, this first Sabbath is explained in its full form, “a sabbatical celebration, a holy sabbath. Moreover, even as the daily gathering of manna so the gathering on the 6th day in preparation for the Sabbath became a touchstone of obedience (vv.27-29). Thus, viewed within the chronological scheme of the narrative, a few months before the actual commandment of the Sabbath (i.e in the Decalogue), the people of Israel were trained in the keeping of the Sabbath, as a day in which there was no need to do the daily chore since the Lord had provided for them a rest. Verses 30 (“so the people ceased [to gather] on the 7th day”) does not give the impression of a Sabbath celebration indicated in verse 23 by the phrase “to Yahweh”, so that one is led to the conclusion that at this stage the emphasis is not on the cultic aspect but on the humanitarians side by way of preparation.

        Consider also Exodus 16:4-5 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I am about to rain bread from heaven for you, and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day, THAT I MAY TEST THEM, whether they will walk in my law or not. On the sixth day, when they prepare what they bring in, it will be twice as much as they gather daily.”

        Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws.”

        I do not believe the verse tells us that Abraham possessed the Mosaic law prior to Mt. Sinai as the promise given by God to Abraham proceed the law by some 430 years.

        Galatians 3:16-17 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

        Also consider the footnote I have in the NET Bible regarding Genesis 26:5-

        “My charge, my commandments, my statues, and my laws. The language of this verse is clearly interpretative, for Abraham did not have these laws. The terms are legal designations for sections of the Mosaic law and presuppose the existence of the law. Some Rabbinic views actually conclude that Abraham had fulfilled the whole law before it was given Some scholars argue that this story could only have been written after the law was given. But the simplest explanation is that the narrator (traditionally taken to be Moses the lawgiver) elaborated by using terms with which the Israelites were familiar. In this way he depicts Abraham as the model of obedience to God’s commands, whose example Israel should follow.

        Another commentator regarding Genesis 26:5 states

        “it is clear that Abraham’s obedience was an obedience of faith to the specific commands of God given to him and not to any 10 commandment law. There are numerous NT texts which show that Abraham’s promises and blessing were not based on law or law keeping, but only on faith.”

        “For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the law, but through the righteous of faith (Romans 4:13).

        For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only those who are of the Law, but also to those of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (Romans 4:16).

        For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise, but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise (Galatians 3:18).

        1Pe 2:21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.

        To what extent should we follow the example of how Jesus lived? Jesus was a Jew under the old Covenant or Mosaic law. Are we to convert to Judaism and attempt to observe all the 600+ laws found in the Torah? I think not as the Church is under the New Covenant; not the Old Covenant. I think that example we are to follow is to suffer as Christ may have suffered for doing what is right.

        Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

        Matthew 24:15,16,20 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. … Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.

        The verse has reference to the end of time and is addressed to those in Judea. Some argue that the prediction had its fulfillment of the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. Others that it is also a prediction of the end of times when Jews would be further persecuted. Gentile churches would not have this problem. Jewish Christians even today observe the OT Sabbath as well as most of the other laws found in the Torah.

      • Lee,

        You said: “Exodus 16 does not imply that the Sabbath was known as a command prior to Mt. Sinai.”

        Does not? I do not see it that way!

        You quoted: “Then the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I am about to rain bread from heaven for you, and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day, THAT I MAY TEST THEM, whether they will walk in my law or not.”

        The reference is to God’s Law and the Sabbath and you claim that this does not imply that the Sabbath was known as a command? For me Law and Command cannot be artificially separated!

        *********
        You cited: “Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws.”

        And you added the comment: “I do not believe the verse tells us that Abraham possessed the Mosaic law prior to Mt. Sinai as the promise given by God to Abraham proceed the law by some 430 years.”

        The text makes reference to obedience to God’s requirements, commands, decrees, and laws, and you are suggesting that this is not a reference to the Mosaic Law? Which Law is this a reference to? Didn’t you grant that there must have been an oral tradition connected with God’s requirements for the patriarchs? How else can we explain God’s rejection of Cain’s offer of fruits instead of a lamb?

        *********
        You cited: “Another commentator regarding Genesis 26:5 states:

        “it is clear that Abraham’s obedience was an obedience of faith to the specific commands of God given to him and not to any 10 commandment law. There are numerous NT texts which show that Abraham’s promises and blessing were not based on law or law keeping, but only on faith.””

        This explanation sound very much like Bill Clinton when he looked at the TV camera and declared: “I did not have sex with that woman.” The Bible talks about Law, and this man says it was not Law but rather faith. If you believe this kind of rationalization then we are wasting precious time we could use to advance God’s kingdom or to alleviate human suffering and pain.

        **********
        You cited: “For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the law, but through the righteous of faith (Romans 4:13).”

        This is a reference to God’s promise. Promise and Law are not synonyms! A promise refers to what God intends to do, Law is what God requires, and Faith if the response to God’s promises. Let’s not confuse those three words.

        *********
        You asked: “To what extent should we follow the example of how Jesus lived? Jesus was a Jew under the old Covenant or Mosaic law. Are we to convert to Judaism and attempt to observe all the 600+ laws found in the Torah?”

        The answer is very simple: God made a basic difference between the Ten Commandments and the other 600+ laws when he ordered the tablets of stone containing the Decalogue to be placed inside the Ark. Jesus made this clear as well when he was asked about the greatest command of the Law. He summarized the Decalogue as follows:

        “37Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’b 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’c 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” [Mat.22]

        This is where your reasoning fails: You like to emphasize our duty to love others, and you forget that Jesus placed our duty to love God above our duty to others. The first four Commandments of the Decalogue specify our duty to God.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, You said: “Exodus 16 does not imply that the Sabbath was known as a command prior to Mt. Sinai.” Does not? I do not see it that way! You quoted: “Then the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I am about to rain bread from heaven for you, and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day, THAT I MAY TEST THEM, whether they will walk in my law or not.” The reference is to God’s Law and the Sabbath and you claim that this does not imply that the Sabbath was known as a command? For me Law and Command cannot be artificially separated! *********

        **While you do not see it that way, some that teach OT see it differently and for good reasons as I have already stated.
        —————–
        You cited: “Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws.” And you added the comment: “I do not believe the verse tells us that Abraham possessed the Mosaic law prior to Mt. Sinai as the promise given by God to Abraham proceed the law by some 430 years.” The text makes reference to obedience to God’s requirements, commands, decrees, and laws, and you are suggesting that this is not a reference to the Mosaic Law? Which Law is this a reference to? Didn’t you grant that there must have been an oral tradition connected with God’s requirements for the patriarchs? How else can we explain God’s rejection of Cain’s offer of fruits instead of a lamb?

        If you believe that God gave Abraham the Mosaic law some 430 years before Mt. Sinai, then logically you can believe that Abraham drove a Ford Mustang to work. I believe my comments on Genesis 26:5 really explain the verse adequately. You however, are stuck with the interpretation that your denomination imposes on the scripture much on the same level as what the Roman Catholic church does with their interpretation of scripture.
        ———–
        You cited: “Another commentator regarding Genesis 26:5 states: “it is clear that Abraham’s obedience was an obedience of faith to the specific commands of God given to him and not to any 10 commandment law. There are numerous NT texts which show that Abraham’s promises and blessing were not based on law or law keeping, but only on faith.” This explanation sound very much like Bill Clinton when he looked at the TV camera and declared: “I did not have sex with that woman.” The Bible talks about Law, and this man says it was not Law but rather faith. If you believe this kind of rationalization then we are wasting precious time we could use to advance God’s kingdom or to alleviate human suffering and pain.
        **I believe the words of Scripture that the promise given to Abraham was based on faith and not works. Your analogy with Clinton situation is extremely poor and does not relate to the facts in this case.
        ————————

        You cited: “For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the law, but through the righteous of faith (Romans 4:13).”This is a reference to God’s promise. Promise and Law are not synonyms! A promise refers to what God intends to do, Law is what God requires, and Faith if the response to God’s promises. Let’s not confuse those three words.
        **Faith is what God requires not obedience to law. Romans 1:17b it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” If you believe the law is what God requires then the Pharisees of our Lord’s day would have indeed been justified (declared righteous).
        ———-
        You asked: “To what extent should we follow the example of how Jesus lived? Jesus was a Jew under the old Covenant or Mosaic law. Are we to convert to Judaism and attempt to observe all the 600+ laws found in the Torah?” The answer is very simple: God made a basic difference between the Ten Commandments and the other 600+ laws when he ordered the tablets of stone containing the Decalogue to be placed inside the Ark. Jesus made this clear as well when he was asked about the greatest command of the Law. He summarized the Decalogue as follows: “37Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind’s 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” [Mat.22] This is where your reasoning fails: You like to emphasize our duty to love others, and you forget that Jesus placed our duty to love God above our duty to others. The first four Commandments of the Decalogue specify our duty to God.
        **What you are doing is making the 10 commandments of paramount importance but they are not. When Jesus was asked what was the great commandment in the law He did not reply with any of the 10 commandments.

        Matthew 22:36-40“Teacher , which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

        Adventists, on the other hand, want us to believe the Sabbath commandments was the greater commandment in the law. Do you suppose the Holy Spirit forgot to have it penned in the New Covenant and forget to tell the Gentile believers that they must observe laws that were uniquely Jewish?

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “While you do not see it that way, some that teach OT see it differently and for good reasons as I have already stated.”

        Yes, but not for good reasons. Actually for bad ones!

        *********
        You stated: “If you believe that God gave Abraham the Mosaic law some 430 years before Mt. Sinai, then logically you can believe that Abraham drove a Ford Mustang to work.”

        Biblically wrong! My Bible states that he drove a camel. You aid admit that the patriarchs must have had some form of oral tradition spelling out what the Lord expected from them. Are you now backtracking? Did Cain sin in bringing the fruit of the land instead of a lamb as a sacrifice? How did Abel know what the Lord wanted?

        *********
        You said: “There are numerous NT texts which show that Abraham’s promises and blessing were not based on law or law keeping, but only on faith.”

        Yes, but in Gen. 26:5 we find a clear reference stating:

        “Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws.”
        True faith leads to obedience to God’s commands, be they oral or written on tablets of stone.

        *********
        You wrote: “I believe the words of Scripture that the promise given to Abraham was based on faith and not works.”

        Yes, but true faith leads to obedience moved by faith. I have a question for you. God told Abraham to go on a pilgrimage in Chapter 12 of Genesis. If all we need is faith—without obedience—then why did the Lord wait until chapter 15 to declare him righteous?

        Why did God allow for so many years before declaring him righteous? If all God expects from us is faith—without obedience—then he should have declared him righteous in chapter 12, the moment Abraham believe and set out towards the land of Canaan! Can you explain this enigma for evangelicals?

        *********
        You wrote: “Faith is what God requires not obedience to law. Romans 1:17b it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.””

        The righteous shall live by genuine faith which leads to obedience to what the Lord commands. God commanded Abraham to leave his homeland, and he did. His obedience was evidence that his faith was genuine. In spite of this, God waited many years before declaring him righteous. This is evidence that faith and obedience go together. Jesus said: “If you love me, keep my commandments.”

        *********
        You said: “What you are doing is making the 10 commandments of paramount importance but they are not. When Jesus was asked what was the great commandment in the law He did not reply with any of the 10 commandments.”

        Here is what Jesus said:

        “37Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’b 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’c 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” [Mat. 22]”

        Jesus was citing the Old Testament “Shema” here:

        4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.a 5Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. 7Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates. [Deut.6]

        And here is the Matthew Henry Commentary:

        Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary

        22:34-40 An interpreter of the law asked our Lord a question, to try, not so much his knowledge, as his judgment. The love of God is the first and great commandment, and the sum of all the commands of the first table. Our love of God must be sincere, not in word and tongue only.

        Notice that Matthew Henry identifies Jesus’ reference to the love for God as the “sum of all the commands of the first table.”

        This means that the Sabbath commandment is included in the reference made by Jesus. Of course, you may argue with Matthew Henry if you want to, but your will probably loose!

        You ended with: “Adventists, on the other hand, want us to believe the Sabbath commandments was the greater commandment in the law.”

        Can you support this assertion with a quote from and official document of the church?

        Nic Samojluk

      • Nic stated: Jesus made this clear as well when he was asked about the greatest command of the Law. He summarized the Decalogue as follows: “37Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind’s 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” [Mat.22] This is where your reasoning fails: You like to emphasize our duty to love others, and you forget that Jesus placed our duty to love God above our duty to others. The first four Commandments of the Decalogue specify our duty to God.

        How does one really love God? By obedience to commandments? That is what the religious people of our Lord’s day thought.

        In the first place we show love towards God by our worship of Him but that worship must be from the heart in spirit and in truth.

        John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

        Secondly, Christ commanded us to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him.

        Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

        The way, I believe, God wants us to love Him is by constantly laying our wills and our lives down before Him. This is what it means to love God.

        We also love God by agreeing with Him when His Spirit convicts of something we may have done wrong or simply something we neglected to do. We do that by repentence and confessing our sins to Him.

        In addition we must, by faith, unconditionally forgive anyone who has wronged us, just as God has unconditionally forgiven us.

        We love God by surrendering all areas of our lives to His will.

        It’s critical to acknowledge that what we have done has quenched or grieviing God’s Spirit in us. We need to confess ownership of our negative thoughts and emotions and then, simply choose to “turn around” from following them.

        And we love God by always be thankful for how God has provided for us in our daily needs as well as what God has done for us, particularly in Christ.

        We love God by reading and studying His word for the Living Word of God is Jesus.

        Clearly we love God by worshipping with others hearing His word from the pulpit of a church that preaches the Word of God but we can do that on the Lord’s day as well as on the old Jewish Sabbath. I do not fault Adventists for worshipping God on the Old Testament Sabbath but on their insistance that God ordained a certain day for worship.

      • Lee,

        You asked: “How does one really love God? By obedience to commandments? That is what the religious people of our Lord’s day thought.”

        Jesus answered your question in John 14:15:

        New American Standard Bible (©1995)
        “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.”

        True love leads to obedience.

        *********
        You stated: “Clearly we love God by worshipping with others hearing His word from the pulpit of a church that preaches the Word of God but we can do that on the Lord’s day as well as on the old Jewish Sabbath.”

        Of course. We can worship the Lord even every day of the week if we want, but this does not excuse us from keeping holy the day God set apart for communion with him. And bear in mind that the Sabbath was created thousands of years before there was a single Jew. The Sabbath was blessed for the human race.

        If you reject the Sabbath because the Jews kept the Sabbath, then you might as well reject Jesus because he was a Jew. Jesus said to the Samaritan woman:

        New International Version (©1984)
        “You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.” [John 4:22]

        This means that we owe our salvation not only to Jesus, but also to the Jews. This is what Jesus said.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Mr. Jensen ……….. What ‘confusion’ you present relative to the Sabbath! Why do you continue to discredit the Sabbath when the New Testament substanitates the fact that Jesus kept the Sabbath in the New Testament! PERIOD!

        Roger Slonaker

      • Mr. Slownaker -

        You stated: Perhaps you did not understand what I stated that the Sabbath was not know PRIOR to the time of Moses. I did not say that the Sabbath was unknown prior to Mt. Sinai. Exodus 16 does not imply that the Sabbath was known as a command prior to Mt. Sinai. For your consideration – Harold [...]
        Mr. Jensen ……….. What ‘confusion’ you present relative to the Sabbath! Why do you continue to discredit the Sabbath when the New Testament substantiates the fact that Jesus kept the Sabbath in the New Testament! PERIOD! Roger Slonaker

        So what you are saying is that we should become proselytes to Judaism, have the synagogue rabbi circumcised our male children, observe all the laws of Moses, including the Levitical dietary laws as well as the week Sabbath and all the other Sabbaths like Jesus did.
        Are you so unfamiliar with the Scripture that states Jesus made another covenant with Israel and was NOT LIKE THE COVENANT He made with them when they came out of Egypt?

        There is virtually not even a hint in all of the New Testament that says we must observe the OT Sabbath.

        Hebrews 8:8-9“Look, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah–– not like the covenant
        that I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt.

        You do now what ‘new’ means do you not? Do you know what ‘not like’ means?

        When the Jerusalem council convene the recognized that Gentile believers were legit because God had given them His Spirit and that without th eir conversion to Judaism and it UNIQUE laws.

        Acts 15:8-9 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.

        Note the phrase ‘having cleansed their hearts by faith”

        It is unfortunate that Adventists do not recognize the fact that God has given His Spirit to those who believe in His Son Jesus the Christ, however, the early church did.

        Adventism really sides with the Galatians Judaizers in that they claimed believers needed to observe laws that were distinctly Jewish, that one needs something more than God’s Spirit.

        Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

        I can understand your frustration but you may want to consider the fact that your position is not only wrong but untenable from both a scriptural and historical standpoint. Ellen White has blinded the eyes of those who would believe.

      • Lee,

        Since you directed your comments at Mr. Slonaker, I will let him answer your arguments. Nevertheless, I want to point to the fact that I did address the many points you mention in your letter to Slonakier.

  34. Lee, You wrote: “However, the main barrier to its observance is still the acknowledged fact that there is nothing in the New covenant that mandates the observance of the Sabbath.” You are confusing the New Covenant with the New Testament. The promise of a new covenant was made in the Old Testament and the reference was to God’s Law contained in the O.T., which meant that it is the Decalogue containing the Sabbath Commandment that would be written in the hearts of believers. The alleged barrier was artificially created by human beings and not by God. Do not forget the promise God made to the gentiles who would in the future accept the Lord as their God: 6And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant— 7these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.” [Is. 56] This promise was made by God with you and me in mind. This passage clearly indicates that the Sabbath was designed for all humanity. The message is straightforward and crystal clear. The Sabbath was meant to be a blessing for all the human race.

    **Why would you limit what laws God wrote onto believers hearts to the Decalogue as it alone is really insufficient in all aspects of our lives. Scriptures is very explicit that love of neighbor fulfills the law and there is no qualifier on law. What God wrote onto believers hearts is that which would enable one to fulfill the law; namely love of neighbor (Romans 13:9-10).

    You said: “I believe that the Jerusalem council Acts 15 did not mandate that Gentile believers had to observe any laws that was peculiarly Jewish in nature.” Do you really believe that the list we find in Acts 15 represents an exhaustive enumeration of moral and religious duties expected from gentile converts? Is whatever behavior not mentioned there acceptable for us?
    **The council of Jerusalem acted responsibly in matters that were essential and in doing that they did not mandate any peculiar laws germane to Judaism. The fact that the Gentiles received God’s Spirit was sufficient for them to be recognized as legitimate. Acts 15:8-9. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.

    • Lee,

      You wrote: “Scriptures is very explicit that love of neighbor fulfills the law and there is no qualifier on law. What God wrote onto believers hearts is that which would enable one to fulfill the law; namely love of neighbor (Romans 13:9-10).”

      Do you really believe that our love towards others fulfill the entire Law? How about our love towards God? Did not Jesus say that the greatest Commandment is our love towards God? The first four of the Ten Commandments summarizes our love for God, and the other six our love towards our fellow men. Why are you skipping what Jesus described as the most important section of the Law?

      *********
      I had asked you” “Do you really believe that the list we find in Acts 15 represents an exhaustive enumeration of moral and religious duties expected from gentile converts? Is whatever behavior not mentioned there acceptable for us?”

      Since you did not answer my question, I am reposting it for you. The question requires a “yes” or “no” answer.

      • Lee, You wrote: “Scriptures is very explicit that love of neighbor fulfills the law and there is no qualifier on law. What God wrote onto believers hearts is that which would enable one to fulfill the law; namely love of neighbor (Romans 13:9-10).”Do you really believe that our love towards others fulfill the entire Law? How about our love towards God? Did not Jesus say that the greatest Commandment is our love towards God? The first four of the Ten Commandments summarizes our love for God, and the other six our love towards our fellow men. Why are you skipping what Jesus described as the most important section of the Law?
        **What does the verse say? Romans 13:9-10 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

        Note that “law” is not qualified. Secondly, note that it speaks of Decalogue commandments. Thirdly, note the phrase “and any other commandment”.

        You are guilty of forcing an interpretation onto the verse to fit your denominational beliefs instead of simply viewing what the verse states.

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “You are guilty of forcing an interpretation onto the verse to fit your denominational beliefs instead of simply viewing what the verse states.”

        You are wrong again! Read my previous posting. When Jesus was asked about our duty, he summarized the Decalogue by saying that the greatest commandment was to love God.

        The text you are quoting talks only about our duty to love others. Are you suggesting that we no longer have a duty to love God? The first four commandments express our duty to God and the last six our duty to others.

        I have chosen to believe what Jesus said instead of your opinion or what Paul said, which you are definitely misinterpreting. Paul evidently was limiting his observation to out duty to others, but there are plenty of other comments by Paul which stress our duty to God which you have opted to ignore.

  35. Lee, You wrote: “She did, however, predict that Christ would come again before all the people at the 1856 conference would die.” Yes, she did! Did I say that she was infallible?
    **What is clearly means is that she was not not not a prophetess as Adventists are required to believe. Was she infallible? Adventists hold that she is the infallible interpreter of scripture and that is where the problem lies.

    Did she set a date? She did believe that the second coming was around the corner, but she is not alone in this belief. Early Christians also believed the same. My dad believed likewise, and I am still convinced that he was one of the finest Christians I have ever known.
    **One of my grandmothers believed that Christ would return in her day and I suppose pointed to various happening in the world during her day as did Ellen White. I believe that all too often this signifies wishful thinking as there is still a feeling of dread when it comes to death.
    —–
    You said: “She made other statements to the effect that the second coming was imminent.” I do not see any basic difference between what she wrote and what the New Testament writers stated regarding the imminence of the second coming.
    **While she did initially believe in Millers prediction of 22 October 1844, she did believe that those in the 1856 conference would not die before the return of Christ. The worst part about it all was that she credited her predictions on what she saw in her visions.
    ————
    You added: “But what should bother you is that she credited them to what her “accompanying angel” told her.” It doesn’t bother me! She might have misinterpreted what the angel actually told her. It wouldn’t be the first time, especially since this took place in the early part of her ministry when she was rather inexperienced. She also misinterpreted the vision about the shut door.
    **Most Adventists would not dare to admit that her predictions were in error- blasphemy against the spirit of Adventism. Apparently you are not really a true Adventists but simply a Sabbaterian. It is too bad you cannot find a denominations that is Sabbaterian but does not have the heavy luggage of the Seventh Day Adventist church.
    ———
    You ended with: “The purge that occurred in the 1980’s saw the removal of many that were theologians, college professors, and others. There is less freedom in Adventism as to Biblical interpretation than in most other denominations.” Does this invalidate my personal beliefs the way I described them to you in my posting?
    **What it does mean is that you lose credibility with the more dedicated Seventh Day Adventists. Rejecting Ellen White as a prophetess is much like others that that say they are Christians but do not believe in Jesus, the Christ. But you need not lose heart as there will be a place for you in the more biblically solid denominations if you get booted out.

    • Lee,

      You wrote: ““What is clearly means is that she was not a prophetess as Adventists are required to believe.”

      What document are you relying on? Please give me a verbatim quotation within its proper context. I been a member of the Adventist Church for nearly 70 years and was never required to hold such a belief.

      By the way, you should know that Ellen White rejected the prophet label, and described herself as a messenger.

      *********

      You affirmed: “Was she infallible? Adventists hold that she is the infallible interpreter of scripture and that is where the problem lies.”

      Where did you get this incredible statement from? Can you provide the source and the actual quotation? Give me official sources only. You seem to hold some strange beliefs!

      **********
      You wrote: “While she did initially believe in Millers prediction of 22 October 1844, she did believe that those in the 1856 conference would not die before the return of Christ. The worst part about it all was that she credited her predictions on what she saw in her visions.”

      I have already answered this objection. Do you want me to repost it?

      *********
      You claimed: “Most Adventists would not dare to admit that her predictions were in error”

      Where do you get your statistics and information from? Is it from Former Adventists perhaps?

      *********

      You said: “Apparently you are not really a true Adventists but simply a Sabbatarian.”

      Since your knowledge of Adventism seemed to be deficient in certain respects, I am not surprised by your claim that I am not a true Adventist. My beliefs are closer to that of the Adventist pioneers.

    • Lee,

      You wrote: ““What is clearly means is that she was not a prophetess as Adventists are required to believe.”

      What document are you relying on? Please give me a verbatim quotation within its proper context. I been a member of the Adventist Church for nearly 70 years and was never required to hold such a belief.

      By the way, you should know that Ellen White rejected the prophet label, and described herself as a messenger.

      *********

      You affirmed: “Was she infallible? Adventists hold that she is the infallible interpreter of scripture and that is where the problem lies.”

      Where did you get this incredible statement from? Can you provide the source and the actual quotation? Give me official sources only. You seem to hold some strange beliefs!

      **********
      You wrote: “While she did initially believe in Millers prediction of 22 October 1844, she did believe that those in the 1856 conference would not die before the return of Christ. The worst part about it all was that she credited her predictions on what she saw in her visions.”

      I have already answered this objection. Do you want me to repost it?

      *********
      You claimed: “Most Adventists would not dare to admit that her predictions were in error”

      Where do you get your statistics and information from? Is it from Former Adventists perhaps?

      *********

      You said: “Apparently you are not really a true Adventists but simply a Sabbatarian.”

      Since your knowledge of Adventism seemed to be deficient in certain respects, I am not surprised by your claim that I am not a true Adventist. My beliefs are closer to that of the Adventist pioneers.

  36. ********* I had asked you” “Do you really believe that the list we find in Acts 15 represents an exhaustive enumeration of moral and religious duties expected from gentile converts? Is whatever behavior not mentioned there acceptable for us?” Since you did not answer my question, I am reposting it for you. The question requires a “yes” or “no” answer.

    **I answered that question once but I will do it again.

    First of all view Acts 15:8

    And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.

    The Jerusalem council recognized the fact that God had accepted the Gentiles believers by making no distinction between the law promoting, Sabbath observing Jewish believers and them.

    Note the phrase “having cleansed their hearts by faith”.

    Secondly view Acts 15:11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

    Salvation is by grace; not by the law.

    Finally note that the conclusion of the Jerusalem council -

    (15:19-20) Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.

    If they had though anything else was essential most certainly they would have mentioned it.

    Your problem is again, forcing something into the verses of Acts 15 that is not there to fit your denominational teachings.

    • Lee,

      You wrote: (15:19-20) Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. If they had though anything else was essential most certainly they would have mentioned it.”

      My question was: “Do you really believe that the list we find in Acts 15 represents an exhaustive enumeration of moral and religious duties expected from gentile converts? Is whatever behavior not mentioned there acceptable for us?”

      My question requires a YES or NO answer. Can you give me a yes or no answer? You can offer all the explanation you want, but I am asking that you give me a yes or no answer first. Can you grant me this request?

      *********
      You said: “Your problem is again, forcing something into the verses of Acts 15 that is not there to fit your denominational teachings.”

      My problem is that you are not answering a simple question! Why?

      • I had asked you” “Do you really believe that the list we find in Acts 15 represents an exhaustive enumeration of moral and religious duties expected from gentile converts? Is whatever behavior not mentioned there acceptable for us?” Since you did not answer my question, I am reposting it for you. The question requires [...]
        Lee, You wrote: (15:19-20) Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. If they had though anything else was essential most certainly they would have mentioned it.” My question was: “Do you really believe that the list we find in Acts 15 represents an exhaustive enumeration of moral and religious duties expected from gentile converts? Is whatever behavior not mentioned there acceptable for us?” My question requires a YES or NO answer. Can you give me a yes or no answer? You can offer all the explanation you want, but I am asking that you give me a yes or no answer first. Can you grant me this request?
        **I think the decision of the Jerusalem council was adequate in their reply that all that was needed of the Gentile believers to be legitimate was expressed in Acts 15:19-20. Since Gentiles already know what moral law was, there was no need to press upon them anything else. Why do you need a simple yes or no answer?
        ————-
        You said: “Your problem is again, forcing something into the verses of Acts 15 that is not there to fit your denominational teachings.” My problem is that you are not answering a simple question! Why?

        **If you were to read my replies and then think about what I stated, you would have an answer to your questions.

      • Lee,

        You asked: “Why do you need a simple yes or no answer?”

        Because the evidence found in Paul’s epistles reveals that much more was expected from the gentile converts. And do not forget that Paul did disregard one of the requirements found in Acts 15: the need to abstain from food which had been offered to idols.

  37. To Nic Samojluk = adventlife.

    You stated = Since your knowledge of Adventism seemed to be deficient in certain respects, I am not surprised by your claim that I am not a true Adventist. My beliefs are closer to that of the Adventist pioneers.
    From you comments, I concluded that you really are not the Adventist you think you are. Perhaps you more into the Bible than in Ellen White and starting to believe more of the Bible than Ellen White.

    I went back over the entire dialogue I made with you and others and concluded that you are not really a good Adventist from the following comments you made. I notice that Roger and others simply said nothing!
    ———

    I have a milder view of this issue. I believe that Ellen White would have made some changes in the original text before republishing her book almost a century after its first publication. Times have changed and the message must be adapted to the circumstances. March 12,2012

    My view about Ellen White writings has changed over the years. I still have her books and I do regard her writings with respect, but I no longer consider them to be above the Bible. She did borrow extensively from other authors. The problem is that she seems to have tried to deny such dependency on what others had written. July 5, 2012

    I do agree that Ellen White did borrow a lot of material from other authors, but labeling her as a con artist is stretching the point, I believe. July 7, 2012

    Most serious Adventist Scholars who have investigated this subject seem to agree that Ellen White borrowed heavily from other authors. They also agree that Mrs. White did not want others to know this fact. July 6, 2012

    I apologize for taking this long to approve this posting made by you. I did not see it until this morning.
    Nic
    By: adventlife on July 17, 2012
    at 6:18 pm

    She was not perfect, of course. She did make some mistakes, but what can we say about Moses, King David, and even Peter. They also made mistakes. Didn’t they? Let’s give her credit for the good things she has done.
    By: adventlife on August 6, 2012

    Ellen White did receive some visions from above, but she also borrowed extensively from other authors and sometimes it is difficult to determine which writings were the direct results of her visions. This is why the official position of the church is that our primary source for doctrine should be the Bible. Nic Samojluk
    By: adventlife on August 13, 2012

    You wrote: “She did, however, predict that Christ would come again before all the people at the 1856 conference would die.”
    Yes, she did! Did I say that she was infallible? Did she set a date? She did believe that the second coming was around the corner, but she is not alone in this belief. Early Christians also believed the same. By: adventlife on August 15, 2012
    ——————
    Lee,
    You wrote: ““What is clearly means is that she was not a prophetess as Adventists are required to believe.”
    What document are you relying on? Please give me a verbatim quotation within its proper context. I been a member of the Adventist Church for nearly 70 years and was never required to hold such a belief.
    By the way, you should know that Ellen White rejected the prophet label, and described herself as a messenger.
    *********
    You affirmed: “Was she infallible? Adventists hold that she is the infallible interpreter of scripture and that is where the problem lies.”
    Where did you get this incredible statement from? Can you provide the source and the actual quotation? Give me official sources only. You seem to hold some strange beliefs!
    **********
    You wrote: “While she did initially believe in Millers prediction of 22 October 1844, she did believe that those in the 1856 conference would not die before the return of Christ. The worst part about it all was that she credited her predictions on what she saw in her visions.”
    I have already answered this objection. Do you want me to repost it?
    *********
    You claimed: “Most Adventists would not dare to admit that her predictions were in error”
    Where do you get your statistics and information from? Is it from Former Adventists perhaps?
    *********
    You said: “Apparently you are not really a true Adventists but simply a Sabbatarian.”
    Since your knowledge of Adventism seemed to be deficient in certain respects, I am not surprised by your claim that I am not a true Adventist. My beliefs are closer to that of the Adventist pioneers.
    By: adventlife on August 16, 2012

    Your words do indeed convict you!

    • Lee,

      You wrote: “From you comments, I concluded that you really are not the Adventist you think you are. Perhaps you more into the Bible than in Ellen White and starting to believe more of the Bible than Ellen White.”

      Regarding the authority and primacy of the Bible, I believe I am in agreement both with Ellen White and the official view of the Adventist Church. Ellen White always regarded the Bible as the final authority on matters of doctrine and faith, and the church is supportive of her view of Scripture. We find the following ingtroductory statement to the Fundamental Beliefs of the SDA Church:

      “Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures.”

      And the same document includes the following declaration connected with the Adventist belief in the role of Ellen White:

      “As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested”

      http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

      *********

      You stated: “I went back over the entire dialogue I made with you and others and concluded that you are not really a good Adventist from the following comments you made.”

      You quoted me as saying: “My view about Ellen White writings has changed over the years.”

      Correct! Which makes me a good Adventist based on the fact that both Ellen White and the Adventist Church agree with me that the Bible is the final authority for doctrine and faith. The more I studied the Bible, the more convinced I became that Mrs. White was not infallible.
      *********

      You concluded: “Your words do indeed convict you!”

      I did review all the quotes you posted and found none of them convicting me. Please, review my thesis: Both Ellen White and the Adventist Church agree with me that the final authority rests with Scripture, which is what I have been following all my life.

      Are you condemning me for following the Bible as supreme authority on doctrine and faith? I do not have a disagreement with Ellen White nor the church over this basic premise.

      Nic samojluk

    • Lee,

      You wrote: “From you comments, I concluded that you really are not the Adventist you think you are. Perhaps you more into the Bible than in Ellen White and starting to believe more of the Bible than Ellen White.”

      Regarding the authority and primacy of the Bible, I believe I am in agreement both with Ellen White and the official view of the Adventist Church. Ellen White always regarded the Bible as the final authority on matters of doctrine and faith, and the church is supportive of her view of Scripture. We find the following ingtroductory statement to the Fundamental Beliefs of the SDA Church:

      “Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures.”

      And the same document includes the following declaration connected with the Adventist belief in the role of Ellen White:

      “As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested”

      http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

      *********

      You stated: “I went back over the entire dialogue I made with you and others and concluded that you are not really a good Adventist from the following comments you made.”

      You quoted me as saying: “My view about Ellen White writings has changed over the years.”

      Correct! Which makes me a good Adventist based on the fact that both Ellen White and the Adventist Church agree with me that the Bible is the final authority for doctrine and faith. The more I studied the Bible, the more convinced I became that Mrs. White was not infallible.
      *********

      You concluded: “Your words do indeed convict you!”

      I did review all the quotes you posted and found none of them convicting me. Please, review my thesis: Both Ellen White and the Adventist Church agree with me that the final authority rests with Scripture, which is what I have been following all my life.

      Are you condemning me for following the Bible as supreme authority on doctrine and faith? I do not have a disagreement with Ellen White nor the church over this basic premise.

      Nic samojluk

      • I rather doubt that you have the capability of interpreting the Bible as it was orginally intended. So I leave you with your foolish religion with the hope that maybe some day you will by God’s grace, come to see the truth as only God can reveal it to you and join the thousands that have found Adventism to be lacking in the truth. It is very unfortunate that so very many have left Adventism and are lost since they will not join any church today.

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “I rather doubt that you have the capability of interpreting the Bible as it was originally intended. So I leave you with your foolish religion with the hope that maybe some day you will by God’s grace, come to see the truth as only God can reveal it to you and join the thousands that have found Adventism to be lacking in the truth. It is very unfortunate that so very many have left Adventism and are lost since they will not join any church today.”

        If I ever leave Adventism, it will not be the result of any of the arguments you have presented in this forum. I have no plans to abandon the blessings connected with the observance of the day the Lord blessed for the sake of humanity.

        If I ever leave the Adventist community of faith, it will be the result of my church refusal to acknowledge its sin of justifying the killing of innocent unborn babies in Adventist hospitals.

        In this my church has failed to live according to the dictates of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and my mission for the last two decades has been to warn my fellow believers that we must repent of this great sin against our Creator.

        The topic of abortion has been the focus of my doctoral dissertation, and I have been promoting the book I have written about this issue. I am also promoting my pro-life views through this forum. If you can spare the time, I suggest that you scroll up to the top and take a look at the many postings I have published about abortion and pro-life activities.

        May the good Lord continue to bless your Bible distribution work is my prayer and desire!

        Nic Samojluk

  38. The church is to be in the world but not of the world.

    Your denomination is much like most other denominations in that it has compromised the truth with the world system.

    In that one often wonders what else has been compromised and what will be next.

    The problem as I see it, is that the rank and file Christian does little or nothing to check those who have been elected as our overseers.

    I believe that as we approach the end of times when Jesus will come for His church, that the church on earth will be an apostate one and the Seventh Day Adventists will be among them.

    • Lee,

      You wrote: “Your denomination is much like most other denominations in that it has compromised the truth with the world system.”

      Yes, and No! It has compromised on the issue of abortion, but it has not compromised on the true Sabbath which the Creator blessed and declared to be holy thousands of years before the appearance of the first Jew on earth.

      You also said: “I believe that as we approach the end of times when Jesus will come for His church, that the church on earth will be an apostate one and the Seventh Day Adventists will be among them.”

      That could happen, and even Ellen White did suggest this possibility when she wrote at a time when abortion was condemned as murder by our Adventist pioneers:

      “We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree; and ministers who are handling sacred things are guilty of sin in this respect. They are coveting their neighbors’ wives, and the seventh commandment is broken. We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil?” {TSB 188.3}

      Sometimes I wonder what Ellen White would say today knowing that thousands of innocent unborn babies were either poisoned or dismembered in the Adventist hospitals Ellen worked so hard to establish!

      Nevertheless, I do believe in repentance and forgiveness. I do hope and pray that the Adventist Church will repent of her sins and be forgiven. Can you pray with me toward this end?

      Nic Samojluk

      • What you say expresses my view that we should follow Christ instead of some denomination that claims to be the one true church that preaches only the truth. Adventists are really no different nor any better than other Christians.

        As to the Sabbath, it is not mandated anywhere in the New Covenant. Like using old wineskins for new wine, or trying to put a new unsrunk cloth patch onto an old garment, we cannot be governored by the Old Covenant.

  39. In response to Roger Slonaker

    It is worthwhile to examine what other Christians believed regarding end times rather than what Ellen White believed in the Great Controversy. Question: “What is going to happen according to end times prophecy?” Answer: The Bible has a lot to say about the end times. Nearly every book of the Bible contains prophecy regarding the [...]
    Good morning Lee . . I’m sorry I accidently deleted your comments about the Sabbath but would like to offer a few Scripture and comments relative to the Sabbath and the observance of it. So the above is not necessarily relative to this issue. The scripture I use is from the New International Version, Life Application Bible published by Tyndale House Publishers in Wheaton, IL and Zondervan Publishing House in Grand Rapids, MI . . And not an SDA published Bible. I offer the following: Genesis 2:2-3 (2) “By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested (or ceased) from all his work. (3) And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested (or ceased) from all the work of creating that he had done.” The Study Bible notes: That God blessed the seventh day means that he set it apart for holy use. This act is picked up in the Ten Commandents (Exodus 20:1-17) where God commanded the observance of the Sabbath. Exodus 20:8-11 (8) “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. (9) Six days you shall labor and do all your work, (10) but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. (11) For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.” The Study Bible notes: “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.” My note: Notice the similar wording in both Genesis & Exodus; “The Lord blessed the seventh day and made it holy.” Which means the Sabbath was created and blessed by god at the creation and was made for man and not just for the Jews for they had not come into existence until much later.
    **Ge 2:3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

    And who among us enters into that rest of God as depicted at Creation?

    Hebrews 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They (Israelites) shall not enter my rest,”’ although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

    Note it says those who believed have entered into God’s rest, not those who would observe a day of the week.

    The Sabbath observers who came out of Egypt did NOT enter into God’s rest thro they did rest on the Sabbath.

    3:16 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would NOT enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?

    Are not today’s Adventists in much the same situation as the Sabbath keepers under Moses?

    Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.

    And what has that “another day” become if not the Lord’s day?

    Those who have come to believe in Christ and have been born of His Spirit are those that have entered into God’s rest. They need not strive for their salvation by obedience to the law since their salvation has been granted of them by grace alone.
    ——–
    Deuteronomy 5:12-15 Repeats the fourth commandment. Isaiah 58:13-14 “If you (Jews) keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you (Jews) call the Sabbath a delight and the Lord’s holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way or doing as you (Jews) please or speaking idle words, then you (Jews)will find your joy in the Lord, and I will cause you (Jews) to ride on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your faith Jacob.” The mouth of the Lord has spoken.
    ** God word to Israel was to Israel, not to His church. There is a command given to Noah to go build a boat, but should we not obey, head for the lumber yard, and start building a boat?
    ———-
    The Study Bible notes: The day of rest should also be honored not only because Sabbath-keeping is a commandment but also because it is best for us and because it honors God. Keeping the Sabbath honors God, our Creator, who also rested on the seventh day. It also unifies our family and sets priorities for them. Our day of rest refreshes us spiritually and physically-providing time when we can gather together for worship and when we can reflect on God without the stress of our everyday activities.
    **Much the same results of observing the Lord’s day as worshipping with others and in the presence of our Lord does indeed refresh us spiritually as well as physically.
    Your argument is much like debating if a dime is more than 2 nickels.
    —-
    Matthew 28:1 After Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.’ Mark 16:1-3 (1) When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. (2) Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb (3) and they asked each other, “who will roll the stone away from the entrance to the tomb?’ The Study Bible says: The women purchased the spices on Saturday evening after the Sabbath had ended so they could go to the tomb early the next morning to anoint Jesus body …………. Luke 24:1 “On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.” John 20:1 “Early on the first day of the week, while was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.”
    **We cannot logically assume that everything changed immediately upon the Resurrection. It took time for the significance of the New Covenant to become understood. “Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”(Galatians 3:3)

    The issue here was that the Judaizers were teaching that one must observe Jewish law (the flesh) in order to be legitimate. Indeed the conflict between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians continued until the leadership of the church passed to the Gentile churches.

    ****Do you as a Seventh Day Adventist maintain that one is incomplete as Christians if we have the Spirit but do not observe laws that are peculiarly Jewish? Think before you answer as you really have to make a judgment on those who have come to faith in Christ.
    ———–
    Mark 2:27-28 (27) Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. (28) So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.” Jesus heals a man’s hand on the Sabbath: Matthew 9-12 See verse 12 ……….”Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Mark 3:1-4 See verse 4 ………. Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent. Luke 6:1-5 See verse 5 Then Jesus said to them, The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
    ***Many think that this expresses a command to observe the Sabbath but in its context, what Jesus is saying to the Jewish leadership that He is not bound by laws that are basically ritual in nature. Note that this statement come after Jesus expresses the view that new wine should not be put into old wineskins – that the tenets of the Old Covenant cannot be forwarded into the New Covenant.
    ————
    Luke 6:6-11 See verse 9 Then Jesus said to them, “I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?” For now I close with the Three Angels message in Revelation: Chapter 14 Verses 6-13 But specifically verses 8-10 (8) A second angel followed and said, “Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.” (9) A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, (10) he too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath, He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.” The Study Bible comments: “John, who probably did not dare speak against Rome openly, applied the name Babylon to this enemy of God’s people (Rome) and, by extension, to all God’s enemies of all times.’
    **Babylon in scripture is symbolic of false religion but not to those proclaim salvation thru the Gospel message. False religions do not proclaim Christ but are really advocate an ethical system founded by a leader that was not part of God’s church. They profess Christ but really do not know Him. What can be said of a denomination that advocates observance of the OT sabbath but is pro-choice?
    ———–

    Jesus said in: Matthew 24:35 Mark 13:31 Luke 13:33 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” Matthew 5:17-20 See verses 17-18 ……….(18) “Do you think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (18) I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”

    **The verse does not imply that the laws of the Old Testament is still applicable to the Christian walk, nor does the verse even imply the Sabbath is still applicable.

    The verse does NOT say that “every jot and tittle of the law will stand till heaven and earth pass away but that it (the law) will not pass away UNITL it is all fulfilled“.

    Luke 16:17 “The Law and the Prophets were UNTIL John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it. BUT it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.

    The fulfillment of the law was accomplished in the ministry of Jesus.

    Luke 24:44 These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.”

    Thus Luke 24:44 is seen to be supplemental to Matt, 5: 17, 18. Matt, 5: 17, 18, therefore, in the light of Luke 24:44, would read as follows: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law of Moses or the prophets or the psalms: I am not come to destroy the law of Moses or the prophets or the psalms, but to fulfill the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law of Moses or the prophets or the psalms till all things written me in the law of Moses and the prophets and psalms shall be fulfilled.”

    While the law was standing, it was easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one jot or one tittle of it to fail (Luke 16:16); but since the law was fulfilled, it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one jot or one tittle of the law to become authoritative again.
    —–

    Revelation 22:18-19 “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. (19) And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of like and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”
    **Pertains only to the book of Revelation.
    —-
    There are many additional Scriptures to offer from both the Old and New Testaments confirming the Sabbath is still God’s Holy Day and not the first day of the week. The Catholic Church states that they made the change in the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. If you write to the Vatican they will confirm this statement in writing. God be with you
    **While the church gathered on the Lord’s Day for communal worship and did not observe the OT Sabbath, the Roman Church gives themselves the credit as they view all Christians as being under Roman Catholicism.

    Lee Jensen.

    • Lee,

      Since your comments were made in response to Roger’s posting, I will let him provide the answer!

      Nic Samojluk

  40. Did Jesus enter the Holy of Holies in 1844 or did He entered into all the holy places in the tabernacle when He ascended into heaven? What does the Scripture tell us?

    Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

    Hebrews 8:1-2 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man.

    Hebrews 9:11-12 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

    Some would believe (and I believe they have full scriptural backing) that when the veil of the temple was rent, common believers no longer needed an intermediary to approach the throne of God.

    Hebrews 10:19-22 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

    • Lee,

      Ellen White did state that if her testimonies are not according to the teaching of the Bible we should reject them. I do follow her advice on this. She was not infallible, and she borrowed a lot of material from others, so it should not surprise us that on certain details she might have been mistaken.

      Nevertheless, if it weren’t for her ministry, there would be no Adventist Church today, nor the large number of Christian Schools and medical institutions. My immediate family has been the recipient of great blessings through the Adventist Church.

      Nic Samojluk

  41. Yes, there is certainly enough of the truth in the publications of Ellen White as we both agree she borrowed much from the works of other Christian authors.

    However, those in Christ should be able to look above the level of denominationalism and seek the truth found in the Bible. It is doubtful that the Adventist view of the sanctuary can be adquately defended from a scriptural standpoint and in agreement with the principle advocated by Ellen White, should be rejected. Those that are far more studied in the scripture have left Adventism largely for this peculiar doctrine.

    Yes, there would be no Adventist church today if it werent for Ellen White, but one could also say that for the Worldwide Church of God founded by Herbert W. Armstrong. They have seen rejected their unbiblical doctrines and are now considered a viable witness for the gospel of Jesus Christ. Hopefully the leadership of the Adventist church will do the same.

    • Lee,

      I do not believe in the sanctuary doctrine as originally taught by the Adventist Church. Doctrines do evolve as we continue studying the teachings found in Scripture. If Ellen White were alive today, she would probably share with me some of my doctrinal views. She grew in her knowledge of the Bible.

      I have no interest in following in the steps of the Worldwide Church of God. They may have made some progress on other issues, but they made a big mistake in abandoning the true Sabbath of the Decalogue. You can’t improve on what God wrote with his own finger on tables of stone.

      Nic Samojluk

      • Your statement “I do not believe in the sanctuary doctrine as originally taught by the Adventist Church” means that you are closer to Biblical Christianity than the old hardshell SDA fundamentalist. Many Biblical scholars, pastors, theologians, university professors and simply students of the Bible either had their credentials withdrawn, kicked out of the Adventist denomination, or simply quit and all for opposing the sanctuary doctrine as taught originally by Ellen White and company. We can see that by the hundreds of articles on the Internet as well as dozens of books written by those who have been Adventist for decades and years.

        As I stated and you seem to agree that “Doctrines do evolve as we continue studying the teachings found in Scripture.” Unfortunately the problem seems ot be more with the SDA leadership than with the rank and file Adventist.

        And liken to the Worldwide Church of God, there is yet hope that as the truth found in Scripture supercedes the unique doctrines of your denomination, we may see a much more Biblically oriented denomination.

        Take care and God bless. e.lee Jensen riolion@msn.com

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “Many Biblical scholars, pastors, theologians, university professors and simply students of the Bible either had their credentials withdrawn, kicked out of the Adventist denomination, or simply quit and all for opposing the sanctuary doctrine as taught originally by Ellen White and company.”

        I am not a church employee. My ministry is independent from the church. There are thousands of Adventists who do not believe in Ellen White’s doctrine of the Sanctuary as originally taught by her. The current doctrine as taught by most Adventist scholars does not exactly match the one taught by the Adventist pioneers.

        Nic Samojluk

  42. Your comments are interesting as it leaves me to wonder if you will eventually leave the SDA church as many thousands already have.

    I have a copy on hand Seventh-Day Adventists Believe – An exposition of the fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church (2005 edition which is the latest).

    This is their official view of the sanctuary belief (pages 347-8); it really has not changed since the Adventist church came into existence. Jesus did not according to the offical SDA position, go into the Holy of Holies at His ascension.

    [There is a sanctuary in heaven-the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and begin His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844 at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phrase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of Investigative Judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The Investigative Judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent (Hebr. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22:1:3;2:16,17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Ezek. 4:6 ;Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6,7;20:12;14:12;22:12).

    Can you truly say this is your position?

    If salvation depends upon our human effort, then clearly the Spirit of Jesus lied when He wrote:

    “Wherefore He (Jesus) is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.” Hebrews 7:25

    And those born of His Spirit are saved not by grace (unmerited favor) but by human obedience (works) contrary to what we read in Ephesians 2:8-10 and elsewhere.

    • Lee,

      You wrote: “Your comments are interesting as it leaves me to wonder if you will eventually leave the SDA church as many thousands already have.”

      I would never leave Adventism over the issue of the Sanctuary. Here in Loma Linda it would be rather hard to find anybody preaching said doctrine the way it was originally taught by Ellen White. You are relying on the Fundamental Beliefs which is rather hard to modify. You need to read what modern Adventist scholars say about this. In my case, I stick to the Bible for doctrine, which is what Mrs. White recommended.

      You also said: “And those born of His Spirit are saved not by grace (unmerited favor) but by human obedience (works) contrary to what we read in Ephesians 2:8-10 and elsewhere.”

      If you think that the Adventist Church teaches that we are saved by our own efforts to obey God’s commands, I would like you to provide the evidence. So far I have not seen it in what you quoted.

      Let me use an anecdote to illustrate what I am trying to say. When slavery was still legal, a rich man went to the slave market and bid for one of the slaves. The man protested by saying that he would never work for him. The landowner ignored his protests and bought him for a good price.

      When he got back to his home, he took the slave he had p0urchased, showed him a nice cottage and said: “This cottage is all yours. You don’t have to work for me a single day as long as you live.” The surprised slave was so overwhelmed by the magnanimous spirit of his master that he exclaimed: “I will work for you as long as I live.”

      Adventists believe that our obedience represents the loving response of those who have been forgiven their sinful past and are willing to obey out of gratitude and they do not rely on their own efforts to keep the Law, but rather on the power of Jesus Christ and the Abiding presence of his Holy Spirit.

      Nic Samojluk

      • The SDA sanctuary doctrine as taught by the founders is still the official and standard belief of the Seventh Day Adventist church.

        And I totally agree with you that we should stick to the Bible for doctrine, a position also held by Ellen White. Anything that has not been part of that ‘faith once and for all delivered to the saints” Jude 3, I reject. I do not see those distinctive doctrines of the SDA church in the early church. I believe anything that essential for our doctrine and walk is to be found in that faith once for all delivered to the saints.

        While I agree somewhat with you that our salvation is wholly of God, SDA Fundamental Beliefs clearly state that “Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments”(#19 The Law of God). Does this not mean that those who do not observe the Sabbath – the 4th commandment- are not really Christians?

        As for our obedience, it is really a matter of God working within us both to will and work for His good pleasure. (Php. 2:13)

        We really cannot have anything to boast of when it comes to our salvation.
        Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord. 1 Cor. 1:31

        If obedience to an ethical religious system like observance of the Sabbath were of any importance, then clearly we would certainly see some kind of command for it New Testament but we do not. Nor do we see it taught to Gentile believers in the early church. . And there is no conviction of sin for not observing the Sabbath. And those are major differences that serve to divide us.

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “The SDA sanctuary doctrine as taught by the founders is still the official and standard belief of the Seventh Day Adventist church.”

        Yes, but there is an important difference between what our pioneers taught and what modern Adventist scholars teach today. The theory that Jesus waited 1800 years to present the merits of his blood before God the Father is missing. My personal view is that the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is not biblical.

        You asked: “SDA Fundamental Beliefs clearly state that “Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments”(#19 The Law of God). Does this not mean that those who do not observe the Sabbath – the 4th commandment- are not really Christians?”

        No. Nevertheless, if a person is convinced that the Sabbath is a gift for humanity and not just for the Jews, that keeping is accompanied by God’s blessings, that is is a memorial of creation and redemption, then willfully ignoring the demands of the Fourth Commandment becomes a sinful detour which may endanger his/her salvation.

        The Bible teaches that the Sabbath is a symbol of our allegiance to the Creator. A symbol is a valuable asset, but if there is nothing of value behind the symbol, then keeping the Sabbath may become a distraction. It’s like having a sign which reads EMERGENCY in large red letters when there is no emergency room staffed with physicians and nurses behind the sign.

        In such a case, it is preferable to have the emergency room without the Emergency sign.

        You said: “We really cannot have anything to boast of when it comes to our salvation. Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord. 1 Cor. 1:31″

        I agree!

        You stated: “If obedience to an ethical religious system like observance of the Sabbath were of any importance, then clearly we would certainly see some kind of command for it New Testament but we do not.”

        This is not strictly necessary. The Bible is one book—not two. In the New Testament we find thousands of references to the Old Testament. The fact that the Sabbath was not specifically referenced in the NT as a command is irrelevant, since the command was included in the Ten Rules given by God for human behavior.

        You wrote: “Nor do we see it taught to Gentile believers in the early church. . And there is no conviction of sin for not observing the Sabbath. And those are major differences that serve to divide us.”

        An argument from silence works both ways—it can affirm as well as negate. My opinion is that, if the early Christians had abandoned Sabbath keeping, there would have been a very strong reaction by the Jews against them.

        Bear in mind that Jesus merely slightly deviated from the way the Jewish leaders kept the Sabbath, and he was accused of breaking the Sabbath Commandment and this was used as one reason for sentencing him to death.

        Contrast this with the early Christians. They were accused of many things, but there is no record of Christians being accused, persecuted, or sentenced to death for breaking the Sabbath.

  43. Lee, you made the following statement:

    “If obedience to an ethical religious system like observance of the Sabbath were of any importance, then clearly we would certainly see some kind of command for it New Testament but we do not.”

    I did locate a specific reference to the Sabbath Commandment in the New Testament, and it is found in connection with the last message to humanity where God calls us to worship the one who “made the heavens and the earth, the sea.” Said statement is a direct quotation taken out of the Sabbath Commandment found in Exodus 20:11.

    New International Version (©1984)
    For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. [Exodus 20:11]

    New International Version (©1984)
    He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” [Revelation 14:7]

    Nic Samojluk

    • You stated “I did locate a specific reference to the Sabbath Commandment in the New Testament, and it is found in connection with the last message to humanity where God calls us to worship the one who “made the heavens and the earth, the sea.” Said statement is a direct quotation taken out of the Sabbath Commandment found in Exodus 20:11”NIV

      I can only agree with you that there is much in the New Testament that has an allusion to what we see in the Old Testament. However, I hold the view that whatever is really important in our Christian walk is explicit in the New Testament. Like I stated before, the Sabbath is nowhere commanded in the New Testament. If it were, then clearly most certainly we would have seen it taught in the Epistles as well as in the early church.

      There is another point that must be considered in that the Ten Commandments really is the Old Covenant. (see Deuteronomy De 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone. See also De: 10:4 and Exodus 34:28)

      But if the ten commandments is the Old Covenant then clearly in view of what we read in Hebrews 8:13 the Old Covenant became obsolete. “In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”

      While we may agree that there is much in common in both Covenants, I do not see the Sabbath commandment being carried into the New Covenant. To me, observance of any day, even if dedicated to the Lord, is something that is optional. In communal worship on the Lord’s Day what we have is an tradition, I believe, established by the Apostles and their immediate successors. The Apostles did not impose anything that was distinctively onto the Gentile church. This I believe was fortunate as if the church was viewed only as another sect of Judaism, much of it may have been destroyed by the Romans in the Jewish rebellions.

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “I hold the view that whatever is really important in our Christian walk is explicit in the New Testament. Like I stated before, the Sabbath is nowhere commanded in the New Testament. If it were, then clearly most certainly we would have seen it taught in the Epistles as well as in the early church.”

        I disagree. When Paul made a reference to the second table of the Decalogue, he skipped two of the Commandments:

        “The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”” [Romans 13:9]

        He emphasized the fact that our duty to others is summarized by our love towards them. Likewise, Jesus summarized our duty towards God by our love towards God. This means that the first four commandments of the Decalogue explain the manner by which we show our love towards God.

        We have plenty of evidence in the New Testament that the Decalogue was never abolished:

        “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” [Romans 3:31`]

        “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” [Matthew 5:17-18]

        You also wrote: “There is another point that must be considered in that the Ten Commandments really is the Old Covenant. … But if the ten commandments is the Old Covenant then clearly in view of what we read in Hebrews 8:13 the Old Covenant became obsolete. “In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.””

        When quoting the Bible, you should never ignore the context. Pay careful attention to what is made obsolete. Is the Sabbath obsolete? Not so. Read what the context says is obsolete:

        “But God found fault with the people and said: “The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.” [Hebrews 8:8]

        “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.” [Hebrews 8:10]

        What was obsolete was not the Sabbath, nor the Law, but rather the material on which the Law would be written. With the old covenant the Law was written on tablets of stone, while in the new covenant the same Law—including the Sabbath—would be written on the hearts of God’s children.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, You wrote: “I hold the view that whatever is really important in our Christian walk is explicit in the New Testament. Like I stated before, the Sabbath is nowhere commanded in the New Testament. If it were, then clearly most certainly we would have seen it taught in the Epistles as well as in the early church.”

        I disagree. When Paul made a reference to the second table of the Decalogue, he skipped two of the Commandments: “The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be,
        are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”” [Romans 13:9] He emphasized the fact that our duty to others is summarized by our love towards them.

        ***The focus of Romans 13:9f is on moral law. Moral law expresses our duty toward others.

        Likewise, Jesus summarized our duty towards God by our love towards God. This means that the first four commandments of the Decalogue explain the manner by which we show our love towards God.

        ***Scripture is clear that we show our love towards God by how we treat our neighbor.

        Mt 25:40b ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

        We have plenty of evidence in the New Testament that the Decalogue was never abolished: “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” [Romans 3:31]

        *** There are many things in the Old Testament that were never abolished,however, such are no longer applicable.

        And what does “establish the law” really mean in Romans 3:31?
        From Matthew Poole’s commentary -
        3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? A very material objection is here to be anticipated and answered, viz. that by establishing justification by faith alone the law is rendered useless, and the obligation thereto destroyed.
        “God forbid: yea, we establish the law“: having rejected this objection, by his usual note of abhorrence, he proceeds to show, that nothing more establishes the law, inasmuch as by faith we attain a perfect righteousness, we are interested in the most complete obedience of Christ to the moral law; and that hereby every type, promise, and prophecy is fulfilled; see #Mt 5:17 Lu 16:17: and we ourselves also being enabled thereunto by a gospel spirit, have a more exact conformity to the law, though we cannot reach to a fulfilling of it.

        “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” [Matthew 5:17-18]
        ***And Jesus did indeed fulfill the law.

        View if you will, the corresponding verse in Luke24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

        “Until heaven & earth disappear” is an emphasis similar to what we see in the Message Bible. 5:18 God’s Law is more real and lasting than the stars in the sky and the ground at your feet. Long after stars burn out and earth wears out, God’s Law will be alive and working.

        You also wrote: “There is another point that must be considered in that the Ten Commandments really is the Old Covenant. … But if the ten commandments is the Old Covenant then clearly in view of what we read in Hebrews 8:13 the Old Covenant became obsolete. “In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” ”When quoting the Bible, you should never ignore the context. Pay careful attention to what is made obsolete. Is the Sabbath obsolete? Not so. Read what the context says is obsolete:

        ***We have to recognize the fact that the Sabbath commandment is thus a commandment from a covenant that has been declared to be obsolete. If the commandment is not obsolete, then it need be passed forward into the New Covenant but it was not.

        “But God found fault with the people and said: “The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.” [Hebrews 8:8]“This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.” [Hebrews 8:10]

        ***Yes, God did make a new covenant with Israel, however, the new covenant was UNLIKE, NOT ACCORDING TO, the old covenant that He made with them when Israel left Egypt.

        8:9 NLT This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and led them out of the land of Egypt.

        Dare we to believe that the new covenant was but a rehash of the old? No, it was a different covenant; not only in location but in substance as well. The Old Covenant had over 600+ laws in it, and most of them were not not not passed forward into the New covenant.

        What was obsolete was not the Sabbath, nor the Law, but rather the material on which the Law would be written. With the old covenant the Law was written on tablets of stone, while in the new covenant the same Law—including the Sabbath—would be written on the hearts of God’s children.

        *** I believe the thing that truly clinches the argument as to if the church was to observe the Sabbath is the fact that only the Jewish Christians (and some proselytes among them), observed the Sabbath while it was not found in any Gentile church. The early church writers were the leaders of these Gentile churches and we cannot find a single one of them promoted observance of the Sabbath, nor can we identify a single church that was a Sabbath keeping church. What we do find, however, is that some Christians observed both the Sabbath as well as the Lord’s day in remembrance of the Resurrection and when they were forbidden to attend the synagogues, communal worship was on Sundays alone.

        What was written onto the hearts of believers was love towards others as such fulfills the law. Furthermore, there is no testimony found in the church that would support the view that observance of the Sabbath was written onto believers hearts.

      • Lee, you wrote:

        “Scripture is clear that we show our love towards God by how we treat our neighbor.”

        Yes, but this does not represent all our duty towards God. You are purposely ignoring the first four Commandments which include not having other gods, not taking God’s name in vain, not worshiping idols, and worshipping him on the day he chose and blessed.

        Are you suggesting that loving our neighbors sums up all our duty towards God? If this is true, then those that worship idols, that take God’s name in vain, and that deny the existence of the Creator are fulfilling God’s requirement.

        I know some individuals who do not believe in the existence of God, but they love their families and are very friendly with others. Are you sure that loving our neighbors is all God expects from us?

        You also said: “ … by establishing justification by faith alone the law is rendered useless, and the obligation thereto destroyed.”

        This is not what Paul said. Notice what he wrote:

        ‘I would not have known what sin is except through the Law.” [Romans 7:7] and

        “So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.” [Romans 7:12]

        This is miles from what you stated. You said that the ”law is rendered useless” while Paul says the opposite: that the law is holy and good. He also says that the law points to sin in our life.

        I suggest that you read James 1:23-25. It states that the law is like a mirror. Would you say that the mirror you look at in the morning is useless? A mirror tells you your physical condition. Likewise, the law was designed by God to help us determined our spiritual condition.

        You further wrote: “Dare we to believe that the new covenant was but a rehash of the old? No, it was a different covenant; not only in location but in substance as well.”

        That is not what the Bible says. The text I quote is crystal clear: The main difference between the old covenant and the new one was that the old covenant was written on tablets of stone, while the new one on people’s heart.

        You said: “The Old Covenant had over 600+ laws in it, and most of them were not passed forward into the New covenant.”

        You forgot that those 600 laws were not written on tablets of stone. Only the Ten Rules for human behavior were inscribed on tablets of stone by the Lord’s own finger.

        Another difference between the old and the new covenant is that the new one is founded on “better promises.” [Hebrews 8:6] The old one was based on the people’s promise to keep God’s law, while the new one is based on God’s promise to write his law in our hearts instead of on tablets of stone.

        Then you added: “I believe the thing that truly clinches the argument as to if the church was to observe the Sabbath is the fact that only the Jewish Christians (and some proselytes among them), observed the Sabbath while it was not found in any Gentile church.”

        You need to read the book authored by Samuelle Bacchiocchi who got his doctorate in Rome and his book got the Catholic imprimatur in spite of him being an Adventist pastor. He had access to the old documents in possession of the church. He definitely disagrees with what you stated.

      • While you say that God wrote His laws onto believers hearts, the laws He has written are those that would fulfill the law and would be something producing Christ-likeness in the believer. But the Sabbath observance would be LEARNED BEHAVIOR, not something that is innate in Christian behavior. Do we show love toward God by observing the Sabbath? No, not necessarily however we show love toward God by worshipping with others. Jesus said that whenever two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Mt. 18:20)

        God really wants us to love Him by constantly laying our wills and our lives down before Him. In doing that we open up ourselves to the working of His Spirit in our lives so that we become more and more like Christ.

        It is a wonderful thing to sense the presence of God in our midst and the warmth of His love. And that is what we should experience during communal worship no matter what day of the week. We are commanded not to neglect meeting with each other but nowhere does the New Testament specify any day of the week. Hebrews 10:25. To observe the Sabbath may have been very difficult for those who were slaves or members of a lower societal economic class during the Roman era. And most of the early church was slaves and lower class people. Historical records (I.e. Roman historian Pliny) tell us that early Christians gather early mornings on the Lord’s Day and that would have permitted slaves and thus of lower classes to gather as it would not have been a direct interference with their employment.

        Another problem I see with your view that God wrote the 10 commandments onto believers hearts is that such truly lacks the testimony of the Church. You would have to conclude that all the saints that have ever lived but didn’t do the jig on the Sabbath were guilty of sin because they really had an understanding that the observance of the Jewish Sabbath pertained only to the Old Covenant dispensation. I believe that since the church really no longer observed the Sabbath by the beginning of the second century that we have to conclude it was not taught by the Apostles or by their immediate successors. If the Sabbath were applicable to the Christian walk we would certainly see it supported in the writings of those who were leaders in the early church. Your belief that God wrote the Sabbath onto believers hearts is only an assumption as the Bible nowhere indicates that.

        I have the book by Samuele Bacchiocchi book “From Sabbath to Sunday – A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity”. I have only read parts of it. He claims that the church by 135 AD no longer observed the Sabbath. However, he credits that change to the Roman Emperor Hadrian. Hadrian was the Roman that crushed the Jewish rebellions. Bacchiocchi claims that he forbid anything that uniquely pertained to the Jewish religion such as Sabbath observance. That, I believe, is open to discussion since from what we know of the early church, they were very steadfast in what they believed even to the point of death. We have virtually no records that any Christian was martyred for observing the Sabbath.

        While I have not read all of Bacchiocchi’s book, there is also a critique written that discusses the problems with the book. The article “Dr. Bacchiocchi, The Sabbath, and the Writings of Paul’ by Kerry Wynne is a good analysis of the book. ( http://www.scribd.com/doc/47752412/Dr-Bacchiocchi-the-Sabbath-and-the-Writings-of-Paul-Kerry-Wynn). Wynne was a 3rd generation Seventh Day Adventists who after 50 year left Adventism. His article is a free PDF download.

        If one accepts the views of Bacchiocchi that the pope was not the one who changed the Sabbath, what you then have to conclude is that Ellen White was wrong. Bacchiocchi even states that. But in doing that the Adventists would have to accept the fact that Ellen was not a true prophetess of God. I think Wynne brings out that point in his article as well.

      • Lee, you wrote: “Do we show love toward God by observing the Sabbath? No”

        My answer to your question is “Yes!” The Sabbath is like a birthday. Would you try to celebrate your wife’s birthday on any day of the year instead of the day she was born? Would your wife believe that you love her if you persistently ignore the correct day for her birthday? Does celebrating the 4th of July on the 4th of August show proper respect for your country history?

        God blessed the seventh day centuries before the birth of the first Jew. God rested on the first Sabbath and blessed it. Have you ever asked yourself what Adam and Eve did on that day while the Lord rested? Why did the Lord bless that day if no human kept it until the appearance of the Jews?

        Why did God remind the children of Israel of the creation when he gave the Sabbath Commandment? Why did God predict that his people would keep the Sabbath in the new earth? Will the saved Christians keep Sunday in heaven while the Jews continue keeping the seventh day holy? Why is it that there is no record of any ordinance to keep Sunday in the New Testament?

        *********

        You also stated: “I believe that since the church really no longer observed the Sabbath by the beginning of the second century that we have to conclude it was not taught by the Apostles or by their immediate successors.”

        This seems to show that you haven’t read Bacchiocchi’s book from page one till the end. You are trying to convince Adventists that they are observing the Sabbath without a good reason, but you haven’t taken the time to read one of the main books they have published on the subject, and you have chosen to read Bacchiocchi’s critics instead. This is a recipe for failure in your mission directed at Seventh-day Adventists!

        Some years ago I was debating a man who was pro-choice and who had published a book on the topic. I read his book several times each time underlying what I was reading with a different color. This is what you need to do if you are serious about your mission. There are other books written by Adventists on the topic. One of them was authored by Dr. Desmond Ford. You need to read that one as well.

        You may also want to read the research performed by J.N. Andrews, one of the founders of the Adventist Church, on this topic. Here are some links:

        Testimony of the Fathers of the First Three Centuries
        Concerning the Sabbath and First Day
        by J.N. Andrews

        Table of Contents
        Chapter 1 Introductory Statement
        Chapter 2 Testimony of Apostolical Constitutions
        Chapter 3 Barnabas – Pliny – Ignatius – The Church at Smyrna – The Epistle to Diognetus – Recognitions of Clement – Syriac Documents concerning Edessa
        Chapter 4 Testimony of Justin Martyr
        Chapter 5 Irenaeus – Dionysius – Melito – Bardesane
        Chapter 6 Theophilus-Clement of Alexandria
        Chapter 7 Testimony of Tertullian, A.D. 200
        Chapter 8 Fabian-Origen-Hippolytus-Novatian
        Chapter 9 Cyprian – Dionysius of Alexandria – Anatolius – Commodianus Archelaus
        Chapter 10 Victorinus – Peter – Methodius – Lactantius – Poem on Genesis – Conclusion

        Read his conclusion where he writes the following:

        “The progressive character of the work of apostasy with respect to the Sabbath is incidentally illustrated by what Giesler the distinguished historian of the church says of the Sabbath and first-day in his record of the first, the second, and the third centuries. Of the first century he says:

        “Whilst the Christians of Palestine, who kept the whole Jewish law, celebrated of course all the Jewish festivals, the heathen converts observed only the Sabbath, and, in remembrance of the closing scenes of our Saviour’s life, the passover (1Cor.5:6-8), though without the Jewish superstitions, Gal.4:10; Col.2:16. Besides these the Sunday as the day of our Saviour’s resurrection (Acts 20:7; 1Cor.16:2; Rev.1:10, e kuriake emera, was devoted to religious worship.” – Giesler’s Ecclesiastical History, vol. i. sect. 29, edition 1836.

        Sunday having obtained a foothold, see how the case stands in the second century. Here are the words of Giesler again:
        “Both Sunday and the Sabbath were observed as festivals; the latter however without Jewish superstitions therewith connected.” – Id. sect. 52.

        **********
        You said: “I have the book by Samuele Bacchiocchi book “From Sabbath to Sunday – A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity.” I have only read parts of it.”

        You need to read all of it, several times perhaps, before attempting to convince Adventists that they should abandon the Sabbath doctrine.

        *********
        You made the following claim: “We have virtually no records that any Christian was martyred for observing the Sabbath.”

        This is not my understanding. Look at this:

        Socrates Scholasticus. “Church History, Book V”. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26015.htm. “For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this. The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebaïs, hold their religious assemblies on the sabbath, but do not participate of the mysteries in the manner usual among Christians in general: for after having eaten and satisfied themselves with food of all kinds, in the evening making their offerings they partake of the mysteries.”
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity

        *********
        You asserted the following: “We have virtually no records that any Christian was martyred for observing the Sabbath.”
        Read the following admission by a defender of Sunday keeping:

        Read what this critic of Sabbath keeping admitted:

        “The first historical record of methodical Sabbath Keeping by Christians who stopped worshipping on the first day of the week, was two active Anabaptist leaders, Andreas Fisher and Oswald Glait, became the pioneer and promoters of the Sabbath in 1527 AD. Both were former priests who had sacrificed the priesthood to become first Lutherans, and then Anabaptists. Glait and Fischer, who had been taught the false doctrine of the Catholic and Lutheran churches, that Sunday is the Sabbath, were astonished to read in the Bible that the Sabbath was indeed the 7th day! When they began to teach this, theologians were sent to persuade them to abandon what they called the “Jewish Sabbath.” Both of them suffered a martyr death, largely due to their Sabbatarian views.” http://www.bible.ca/H-sunday.htm

        Notice that they were martyred for teaching the Sabbath doctrine.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you wrote: “Do we show love toward God by observing the Sabbath? No”

        My answer to your question is “Yes!” The Sabbath is like a birthday. Would you try to celebrate your wife’s birthday on any day of the year instead of the day she was born? Would your wife believe that you love her if you persistently ignore the correct day for her birthday? Does celebrating the 4th of July on the 4th of August show proper respect for your country history?

        God blessed the seventh day centuries before the birth of the first Jew. God rested on the first Sabbath and blessed it. Have you ever asked yourself what Adam and Eve did on that day while the Lord rested? Why did the Lord bless that day if no human kept it until the appearance of the Jews?

        Why did God remind the children of Israel of the creation when he gave the Sabbath Commandment? Why did God predict that his people would keep the Sabbath in the new earth? Will the saved Christians keep Sunday in heaven while the Jews continue keeping the seventh day holy? Why is it that there is no record of any ordinance to keep Sunday in the New Testament?

        *********

        You also stated: “I believe that since the church really no longer observed the Sabbath by the beginning of the second century that we have to conclude it was not taught by the Apostles or by their immediate successors.”

        This seems to show that you haven’t read Bacchiocchi’s book from page one till the end. You are trying to convince Adventists that they are observing the Sabbath without a good reason, but you haven’t taken the time to read one of the main books they have published on the subject, and you have chosen to read Bacchiocchi’s critics instead. This is a recipe for failure in your mission directed at Seventh-day Adventists!

        Some years ago I was debating a man who was pro-choice and who had published a book on the topic. I read his book several times each time underlying what I was reading with a different color. This is what you need to do if you are serious about your mission. There are other books written by Adventists on the topic. One of them was authored by Dr. Desmond Ford. You need to read that one as well.

        You may also want to read the research performed by J.N. Andrews, one of the founders of the Adventist Church, on this topic. Here are some links:

        Testimony of the Fathers of the First Three Centuries
        Concerning the Sabbath and First Day
        by J.N. Andrews

        Table of Contents
        Chapter 1 Introductory Statement
        Chapter 2 Testimony of Apostolical Constitutions
        Chapter 3 Barnabas – Pliny – Ignatius – The Church at Smyrna – The Epistle to Diognetus – Recognitions of Clement – Syriac Documents concerning Edessa
        Chapter 4 Testimony of Justin Martyr
        Chapter 5 Irenaeus – Dionysius – Melito – Bardesane
        Chapter 6 Theophilus-Clement of Alexandria
        Chapter 7 Testimony of Tertullian, A.D. 200
        Chapter 8 Fabian-Origen-Hippolytus-Novatian
        Chapter 9 Cyprian – Dionysius of Alexandria – Anatolius – Commodianus Archelaus
        Chapter 10 Victorinus – Peter – Methodius – Lactantius – Poem on Genesis – Conclusion

        Read his conclusion where he writes the following:

        “The progressive character of the work of apostasy with respect to the Sabbath is incidentally illustrated by what Giesler the distinguished historian of the church says of the Sabbath and first-day in his record of the first, the second, and the third centuries. Of the first century he says:

        “Whilst the Christians of Palestine, who kept the whole Jewish law, celebrated of course all the Jewish festivals, the heathen converts observed only the Sabbath, and, in remembrance of the closing scenes of our Saviour’s life, the passover (1Cor.5:6-8), though without the Jewish superstitions, Gal.4:10; Col.2:16. Besides these the Sunday as the day of our Saviour’s resurrection (Acts 20:7; 1Cor.16:2; Rev.1:10, e kuriake emera, was devoted to religious worship.” – Giesler’s Ecclesiastical History, vol. i. sect. 29, edition 1836.

        Sunday having obtained a foothold, see how the case stands in the second century. Here are the words of Giesler again:
        “Both Sunday and the Sabbath were observed as festivals; the latter however without Jewish superstitions therewith connected.” – Id. sect. 52.

        **********
        You said: “I have the book by Samuele Bacchiocchi book “From Sabbath to Sunday – A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity.” I have only read parts of it.”

        You need to read all of it, several times perhaps, before attempting to convince Adventists that they should abandon the Sabbath doctrine.

        *********
        You made the following claim: “We have virtually no records that any Christian was martyred for observing the Sabbath.”

        This is not my understanding. Look at this:

        Socrates Scholasticus. “Church History, Book V”. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26015.htm. “For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this. The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebaïs, hold their religious assemblies on the sabbath, but do not participate of the mysteries in the manner usual among Christians in general: for after having eaten and satisfied themselves with food of all kinds, in the evening making their offerings they partake of the mysteries.”
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity

        *********
        You asserted the following: “We have virtually no records that any Christian was martyred for observing the Sabbath.”
        Read the following admission by a defender of Sunday keeping:

        Read what this critic of Sabbath keeping admitted:

        “The first historical record of methodical Sabbath Keeping by Christians who stopped worshipping on the first day of the week, was two active Anabaptist leaders, Andreas Fisher and Oswald Glait, became the pioneer and promoters of the Sabbath in 1527 AD. Both were former priests who had sacrificed the priesthood to become first Lutherans, and then Anabaptists. Glait and Fischer, who had been taught the false doctrine of the Catholic and Lutheran churches, that Sunday is the Sabbath, were astonished to read in the Bible that the Sabbath was indeed the 7th day! When they began to teach this, theologians were sent to persuade them to abandon what they called the “Jewish Sabbath.” Both of them suffered a martyr death, largely due to their Sabbatarian views.” http://www.bible.ca/H-sunday.htm

        Notice that they were martyred for teaching the Sabbath doctrine.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you wrote: “Do we show love toward God by observing the Sabbath? No” My answer to your question is “Yes!” The Sabbath is like a birthday.

        1. ***Much can be said also of the day of Resurrection, referred to by the ancients as the Lord’s Day. And we see the early church meeting on the Lord’s day and I believe this happened as Christians were no longer welcome in the synagogues. In the Gentile church, observance of the Sabbath was not commanded – an issue that Gentiles need not observe the law of Moses or be circumcised at the Jerusalem council Acts 15.

        Adventist church historians and others have found that the Gentile churches no longer observed the Sabbath by 135 AD and that would have to mean that Sabbath observance was not taught by the Apostles and certainly not by their successors.
        —-
        Would you try to celebrate your wife’s birthday on any day of the year instead of the day she was born? Would your wife believe that you love her if you persistently ignore the corrected day for her birthday?

        2. ***My wife’s birthday as is the celebration of the 4th July comes only once a year like the birthday of Jesus that we celebrate on Christmas.

        Does celebrating the 4th of July on the 4th of August show proper respect for your country history?

        3. ***By tradition we celebrate the 4th of July, much the same as we have communal worship on Sundays.
        As I stated before, the gathering of Christians on the Lord’s Day was a matter NOT of command but of tradition. If such was the traditions established by the Apostles and followed by their successors, then we are commanded to observe those traditions.

        2Th 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

        However there is NO LAW that says we must observe any day regardless of its significance to ourselves or our nation.

        God blessed the seventh day centuries before the birth of the first Jew. God rested on the first Sabbath and blessed it.

        4. ***Yes the Sabbath reflects back to the creation but was neither observed nor commanded of anyone except the nation of Israel.

        The fact is there was no seven day week calendar in existence prior to Mt. Sinai. The concept of the week was sometime that came from the Jews and Babylonian astrologers. Egypt for instance observed a 10 day week during the time of Moses.

        I believe the Jewish calendar started with Moses. Consider if you will Exodus 12:2

        “This month shall be for you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year for you.”

        Have you ever asked yourself what Adam and Eve did on that day while the Lord rested?

        5.***No, since there is no record of anyone observing any day until Mt. Sinai.

        Why did the Lord bless that day if no human kept it until the appearance of the Jews?

        6. ***Like circumcision, the dietary laws, and the Sabbath, these laws and ordinances were designed in connection with the Jewish worship system. However, they were either fulfilled in the ministry of Christ or for whatever reason did not become part of the New Covenant. A person for instance could not celebrate any of the Jewish holy days including the Sabbath without first becoming circumcised. Some reference tell us that if an uncircumcised person observed the Passover, or the Sabbath or any of the Jewish ordinances, he may be put to death.

        Why did God remind the children of Israel of the creation when he gave the Sabbath Commandment?

        7. ***The Sabbath merely reflected the rest of God at creation depicting the rest of believers in Christ would have. Hebrews 4 is our key section on this issue. Our rest in Christ is the result of the new creation in Christ to believers.

        2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

        Why did God predict that his people would keep the Sabbath in the new earth? Will the saved Christians keep Sunday in heaven while the Jews continue keeping the seventh day holy?

        8. ***What you refer to is from Isaiah 66:23 -

        “From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.”

        The meaning of this verse is better reflected in the NLT paraphrase translation

        Isaiah 66:23 “All humanity will come to worship me from week to week and from month to month.”

        There is no reason that something that served as the SIGN of the old Sinaitic covenant (Exodus 31:13) would be observed in the new earth. The time of the new heaven and new earth would be a different covenantal relationship.
        Why is it that there is no record of any ordinance to keep Sunday in the New Testament?

        9.*** Perhaps Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:2 would indicate that early Christians met on Sundays. History seems to confirm that Sunday was the day of communal worship in the early church especially the early Gentile church.

        You also stated: “I believe that since the church really no longer observed the Sabbath by the beginning of the second century that we have to conclude it was not taught by the Apostles or by their immediate successors.” This seems to show that you haven’t read Bacchiocchi’s book from page one till the end.

        10.***Bacchiocchi has found that the church no longer observed the Sabbath by 135 AD but believes that is because of the anti-Jewish sentiment among Gentile Christians and the suppression of Jewish religious practices by the Romans under Hadrian. I disagree with his conclusion because Christians would have and did die for their convictions.

        You are trying to convince Adventists that they are observing the Sabbath without a good reason, but you haven’t taken the time to read one of the main books they have published on the subject, and you have chosen to read Bacchiocchi’s critics instead. This is a recipe for failure in your mission directed at Seventh-day Adventists!

        11.***Am I trying to convert Adventists or the Sabbaterian to observe communal worship on the Lord’s day while what is truly important is whether one has become a born again Christian? Or am I just defending my belief that the observance of the Jewish Sabbath is something not commanded of the Church? We have an Messianic congregation in our community and I totally respect their beliefs to observe Jewish religious laws including the Sabbath. When they have invited a Gideon to address their congregation, it is on Saturday that we would do so.
        —-
        Some years ago I was debating a man who was pro-choice and who had published a book on the topic. I read his book several times each time underlying what I was reading with a different color. This is what you need to do if you are serious about your mission. There are other books written by Adventists on the topic. One of them was authored by Dr. Desmond Ford. You need to read that one as well.

        12. ***It is always a good idea to read what others believe and why. And in doing so, we would be able to debate more intelligently any issue.

        While I am currently reading Bacchiocchi’s book but like I said, I disagree with his conclusion.

        I have not read Desmond Ford, however, as I recall, “He was dismissed from ministry in the Adventist church in 1980 following his critique of the church’s investigative judgment teaching.” (Wikipedia)

        Of interest to Seventh Day Adventists is Raymond Cottrell’s article “The Sanctuary Doctrine – Asset or Liability”. His conclusion was that the sanctuary doctrine as first presented by the Adventist church simply cannot be defended on the basis of scripture. I believe the entire foundation of Adventism was built on the false premise that Jesus went from the Outer Court of the heavenly sanctuary to the Holy of Holies and that in 1844.

        I have read the Great Controversy by Ellen White as well as some of the critiques. I am convinced that she was of the same cut others known for the visions or trances. We read of the visions of Ann Lee of the Shakers and Joanna Southcott, many that were also had visions as did Ellen White; and believed they were messengers of God.

        But if I understand you correctly, you are more so a Sabbaterian than a Seventh Day Adventist. If you were truly a Day Adventist you would disagree with Bacchiocchi because he also rejects Ellen White’s view that the Roman Catholic church changed the Sabbath in the 4th century thus asserting that her visions were not of God.
        ——
        You may also want to read the research performed by J.N. Andrews, one of fthe founders of the Adventist Church, on this topic. are some links: Testimony of the Fathers of the First Three Centuries Concerning the Sabbath and First Day by J.N. Andrews Table of Contents Chapter 1 Introductory Statement Chapter 2 Testimony of Apostolical Constitutions Chapter 3 Barnabas – Pliny – Ignatius – The Church at Smyrna – The Epistle to Diognetus – Recognitions of Clement – Syriac Documents concerning Edessa Chapter 4 Testimony of Justin Martyr Chapter 5 Irenaeus – Dionysius – Melito – Bardesane Chapter 6 Theophilus-Clement of Alexandria Chapter 7 Testimony of Tertullian, A.D. 200 Chapter 8 Fabian-Origen-Hippolytus-Novatian Chapter 9 Cyprian – Dionysius of Alexandria – Anatolius – Commodianus Archelaus Chapter 10 Victorinus – Peter – Methodius – Lactantius – Poem on Genesis – Conclusion Read his conclusion where he writes the following:“The progressive character of the work of apostasy with respect to the Sabbath is incidentally illustrated by what Giesler the distinguished historian of the church says of the Sabbath and first-day in his record of the first, the second, and the third centuries. Of the first century he says: “Whilst the Christians of Palestine, who kept the whole Jewish law, celebrated of course all the Jewish festivals, the heathen converts observed only the Sabbath, and, in remembrance of the closing scenes of our Saviour’s life, the passover (1Cor.5:6-8), though without the Jewish superstitions, Gal.4:10; Col.2:16. Besides these the Sunday as the day of our Saviour’s resurrection (Acts 20:7; 1Cor.16:2; Rev.1:10, ekuriake emera, was devoted to religious worship.” – Giesler’s Ecclesiastical History, vol. i. sect. 29, edition 1836. Sunday having obtained a foothold, see how the case stands in the second century. Here are the words of Giesler again: “Both Sunday and the Sabbath were observed as festivals; the latter however without Jewish superstitions therewith connected.” – Id. sect. 52.

        13. ***I do not recognize J. N. Andrews as a creditable church historian nor can I agree with much of his theology. He was a very staunch anti-Trinitarian as were other Adventists of his day. His close association with the White is also disturbing.

        I have nearly finished reading what I believe is the ultimate in the study of the Sabbath.

        “From Sabbath to Lord’s Day – a biblical, historical , and theological investigation” which is a compilation of articles by various authors and edited by D. A. Carson. The book is rather pricy but covers just about everything worthwhile on this topic.
        —–
        You said: “I have read the book by Samuele Bacchiocchi “From Sabbath to Sunday – A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity.” I have only read parts of it.” You need to read all of it, several times perhaps, before attempting to convince Adventists that they should abandon the Sabbath doctrine.
        You made the following claim: “We have virtually no records that any Christian was martyred for observing the Sabbath.” This is not my understanding. Look at this: Socrates Scholasticus. “Church History, Book V”. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26015.htm. “For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this. The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebaïs, hold their religious assemblies on the sabbath, but do not participate of the mysteries in the manner usual among Christians in general: for after having eaten and satisfied themselves with food of all kinds, in the evening making their offerings they partake of the mysteries.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity

        14. ****Socrates Scholastics wrote from the perspective of the second century when the church was transitioning from observing the Sabbath to having communal worship on Sundays. Bear in mind that Bacchiocchi’s research revealed that the norm for Sunday worship was by 135 AD. The transition from observing the Jewish Sabbath by Jewish Christians in the synagogues located all over the Mediterranean world was not something done overnight. I believe most Jewish Christians in the Palestine area continue to observe the Sabbath until the leadership of the church passed to the Gentiles after the Roman suppression of the Jewish rebellions.

        From http://restorationoftorah.org/SeedsofSeparation/SeedsOfSep3.htm

        {It is a fact that the early Christian Churches continued to meet on the Sabbath. Commenting on variations regarding religious assemblies within the Christian Church, Socrates Scholasticus writes, “For although almost all Churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [the eucharist] on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.”4 This “ancient tradition” spoken of by Socrates was initiated in the early second century in Rome and Alexandria, the first Christian assemblies to break the tradition of meeting on the Sabbath. To understand their reasoning we must examine the writings of Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr and the letter of Barnabas, all writings of the first half of the second century. Ignatius (approximately 98-117 CE) warned about, “the Judaizing tendencies of his territory, which…had suffered the influences of the synagogue and of the Judaeo-Christians [Messianic Jewish believers].”5 }

        You may wish to read the rest of this article.
        ————-
        You asserted the following: “We have virtually no records that any Christian was martyred for observing the Sabbath.”

        Read the following admission by a defender of Sunday keeping: Read what this critic of Sabbath keeping admitted: “The first historical record of methodical Sabbath Keeping by Christians who stopped worshipping on the first day of the week, was two active Anabaptist leaders, Andreas Fisher and Oswald Glait, became the pioneer and promoters of the Sabbath in 1527 AD. Both were former priests who had sacrificed the priesthood to become first Lutherans, and then Anabaptists. Glait and Fischer, who had been taught the false doctrine of the Catholic and Lutheran churches, that Sunday is the Sabbath, were astonished to read in the Bible that the Sabbath was indeed the 7th day! When they began to teach this, theologians were sent to persuade them to abandon what they called the “Jewish Sabbath.” Both of them suffered a martyr death, largely due to their Sabbatarian views.” http://www.bible.ca/H-sunday.htm Notice that they were martyred for teaching the Sabbath doctrine. Nic Samojluk

        15. ***Thanks for the reference but I see no one martyred during the first few centuries because of Sabbath observance. As to those who may have been persecuted because of the Sabbaterianism you mentioned, the main issue with the Anabaptists was infant baptism which they rejected. So were they really martyred because they were Sabbaterians or because they were Anabaptists? I think the latter is true. While this movement later became the Mennonites, Amish and other smaller sects, they did not become Sabbath keepers. Probably what you have is an isolated incident.

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “Much can be said also of the day of Resurrection, referred to by the ancients as the Lord’s Day.”

        Yes, but the observance of Sunday was never ordered by God and the day was never blessed by the Lord.

        You said: “In the Gentile church, observance of the Sabbath was not commanded – an issue that Gentiles need not observe the law of Moses or be circumcised at the Jerusalem council Acts 15.”

        I hope you are not confusing the law of Moses with God’s Law, which was written on tablets of stone by God’s finger.

        You wrote: “Adventist church historians and others have found that the Gentile churches no longer observed the Sabbath by 135 AD and that would have to mean that Sabbath observance was not taught by the Apostles and certainly not by their successors.”

        Please, consider the following:

        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The First Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Second Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Third Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Fourth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Fifth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Sixth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Seventh Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Eighth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Ninth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Tenth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Eleventh Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Twelveth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Thirteenth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Fourteenth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Fifteenth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Sixteenth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Seventeenth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Eighteenth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Nineteenth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Twentieth Century A.D.

        [Note: the above are links. If they are not live, then click on the link listed at the bottom of this post where they are live.]
        ________________________________________
        Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The First Century A.D.
        INSTITUTION OF THE SABBATH
        “Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.” (Genesis 2:1-3 )

        JESUS
        “And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.” (Luke 4:16)

        JESUS
        “And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:16,17)

        JESUS
        “But pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the Sabbath day.” (Matthew 24, 20).
        NOTE: Jesus asked his disciples to pray that in the flight from the doomed city of Jerusalem they would not have to flee on the Sabbath day. This flight took place in 70 A.D. 40 years after the Jesus’ crucfixion and we see here that Jesus fully expected His church to be observing His true seventh day Sabbath that He Himself proclaimed to be the Lord of.

        JESUS’ FOLLOWERS
        “And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment.” (Luke 23:56.) Did these women make a mistake and keep the wrong sabbath or was it that Christ NEVER EVER hinted that there would be a change forthcoming???

        PAUL
        “And Paul, as his manner was went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures” (Acts 17:2) Did Christ fail to inform Paul on the road to Damascus that there’s now a new sabbath? Or rather does the silence of Christ speak volumes against the papal sabbath???

        PAUL AND THE GENTILES
        “And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. And the next Sabbath came almost the whole city together to hear the Word of God.” Acts 13:42, 44.

        Here we find Gentiles in a Gentile city gathering on the Sabbath. It was not a synagogue meeting in verse 44, for it says almost the whole city came together, verse 42 says they asked to hear the message the “next Sabbath.”

        And get this: The Bible does not say it is the “old Jewish Sabbath that was passed away,” but the Spirit of God, writing the Book of Acts some 30 years after the crucifixion, calls it “the next Sabbath.”

        JOHN
        “I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day.” Rev.1:10 (Mark 2:28, Isa.58:13, Ex.20:10, Clearly show the Sabbath to be the Lord’s day).
        The term “Lord’s day” in reference to sunday came later. The Biblical meaning for Lord’s day is the day that God calls “My holy day” and the day that Jesus said He is Lord of.

        JOSEPHUS
        “There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the Barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!” M’Clatchie, “Notes and Queries on China and Japan” (edited by Dennys), Vol 4, Nos 7, 8, p.100.

        PHILO
        Declares the seventh day to be a festival, not of this or of that city, but of the universe. M’Clatchie, “Notes and Queries,” Vol. 4, 99

        So we have incontrovertible proof that the observance of sunday was NOT practiced by the apostolic church of the first century. Although the poison of apostasy had already begun, it did not reach the ascendancy until the passage of a few more centuries.

        The next installment will show the historical record of the early christians observing the true seventh day Sabbath in the second century A.D
        Please, read the entire article.

        Here is the link, and read my next posting as well!:

        http://www.remnantofgod.org/sabhist.htm

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee,

        I selected a few quotes from the material I referenced in my previous post:

        EARLY CHRISTIANS – 2nd Century

        “The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath,” Gieseler’s “Church History,” Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.

        EARLY CHRISTIANS – 2nd Century
        “The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;…therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council.” “The Whole Works” of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber’s Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

        EARLY CHRISTIANS – 2nd Century
        “It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord’s day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour’s death.” “A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath,” p. 77

        Note: By the “Lord’s day” here the writer means Sunday and not the true Sabbath,” which the Bible says is the Sabbath. This quotation shows Sunday coming into use in the early centuries soon after the death of the Apostles. It illustrates the apostasy that Paul the Apostle foretold of when he spoke about a great “falling away” from the Truth that would take place soon after his death.

        Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Fourth Century A.D.

        “The ancient Christians were very careful in the observance of Saturday, or the seventh day…It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival…Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assembles on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same.” “Antiquities of the Christian Church,” Vol.II Book XX, chap. 3, sec.1, 66. 1137,1138.

        ITALY-MILAN
        “Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb, ‘When you are in Rome, do as Rome does.’” Heylyn, “The History of the Sabbath” (1612)

        SPAIN-COUNCIL ELVIRA (A.D.305)
        Canon 26 of the Council of Elvira reveals that the Church of Spain at that time kept Saturday, the seventh day. “As to fasting every Sabbath: Resolved, that the error be corrected of fasting every Sabbath.” This resolution of the council is in direct opposition to the policy the church at Rome had inaugurated, that of commanding Sabbath as a fast day in order to humiliate it and make it repugnant to the people.

        PERSIA-A.D. 335-375 (40 YEARS PERSECUTION UNDER SHAPUR II)
        The popular complaint against the Christians-”They despise our sungod, they have divine services on Saturday, they desecrate the sacred the earth by burying their dead in it.” Truth Triumphant,” p.170.

        PERSIA-A.D.335-375
        “They despise our sun-god. Did not Zorcaster, the sainted founder of our divine beliefs, institute Sunday one thousand years ago in honour of the sun and supplant the Sabbath of the Old Testament. Yet these Christians have divine services on Saturday.” O’Leary, “The Syriac Church and Fathers,” pp.83, 84.

        COUNCIL LAODICEA-A.D.365
        “Canon 16-On Saturday the Gospels and other portions of the Scripture shall be read aloud.” “Canon 29-Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day.” Hefele’s “Councils,” Vol. 2, b. 6.

        Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Fifth Century A.D.

        THE WORLD
        “For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrated the sacred mysteries (the Lord’s Supper) on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Allexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this.” The footnote which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word “Sabbath.” It says: “That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called “the Sabbath’ by the ancient Fathers and historians.” Sacrates, “Ecclestical History,” Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.
        CONSTANTINOPLE
        “The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria.” Socrates, “Ecclesiastical History,” Book 7, chap.19.

        THROUGH THE FIFTH CENTURY A.D.
        Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church. “Ancient Christianity Exemplified,” Lyman Coleman, ch. 26, sec. 2, p. 527.

        SPAIN (400 A.D.)
        “Ambrose sanctified the seventh day as the Sabbath (as he himself says). Ambrose had great influence in Spain, which was also observing the Saturday Sabbath.” Truth Triumphant, p. 68.

        CHURCH OF THE EAST
        “Mingana proves that in 410 Isaac, supreme director of the Church of the East, held a world council,-stimulated, some think, by the trip of Musacus,-attended by eastern delegates from forty grand metrop olitan divisions. In 411 he appointed a metropolitan director for China. These churches were sanctifying the seventh day.”

        Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Sixth Century A.D.

        SCOTTISH CHURCH
        “In this latter instance they seemed to have followed a custom of which we find traces in the early monastic church of Ireland by which they held Saturday to be the Sabbath on which they rested from all their labours.” W.T. Skene, “Adamnan Llife of St. Columbs” 1874, p.96.
        SCOTLAND, IRELAND

        “We seem to see here an allusion to the custom, observed in the early monastic Church of Ireland, of keeping the day of rest on Saturday, or the Sabbath.” “History of the Catholic Church in Scotland,” Vol.1, p. 86, by Catholic histsorian Bellesheim.

        SCOTLAND-COLULMBA
        “Having continued his labours in Scotland thirty-four years, he clearly and openly foretold his death, and on Saturday, the month of June, said to his disciple Diermit: “This day is calleld the Sabbath, that is the rest day, and such will it truly be to me; for it will put an end to my labours.’” “Butler’s Lives of the Saints,” Vol.1, A.D. 597, art. “St. Columba” p. 762

        COLUMBA (RE DR. BUTLER’S DESCRIPTION OF HIS DEATH)
        The editor of the best biography of Colulmba says in a footnote: “Our Saturday. The custom to call the Lord’s day Sabbath did not commence until a thousand years later.” Adamnan’s “Life of Columba” (Dublin, 1857), p. 230.

        Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Seventh Century A.D.

        SCOTLAND AND IRELAND
        Professor James C. Moffatt, D.D., Professor of Church History at Princeton, says: It seems to have been customary in the Celtic churches of early times, in Ireland as well as Scotland, to keep Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, as a day of rest from labour. They obeyed the fourth commandment literally upon the seventh day of week.” “The Church in Scotland,” p.140.

        SCOTLAND AND IRELAND
        “The Celts used a Latin Bible unlike the Vulgate (R.C.) and kept Saturday as a day of rest, with special religious services on Sunday.” Flick, “The Rise of Mediaeval Church,” p. 237

        Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Eighth Century A.D.

        INDIA, CHINA, PERSIA, ETC
        “Widespread and enduring was the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath among the believers of the Church of the East and the St. Thomas Christians of India, who never were connected with Rome. It also was maintained among those bodies which broke off from Rome after the Council of Chalcedon namely, the Abyssinians, the Jacobites, the Maronites, and the Armenians,” Schaff-Herzog, The New Enclopadia of Religious Knowledge,” art. “Nestorians”; also Realencyclopaedie fur Protestantische Theologie und Kirche,” art. “Nestorianer.”

        CHINA-A.D.781
        In A.D. 781 the famous China Monument was inscribed in marble to tell of the growth of Christianity in China at that time. The inscription, consisting of 763 words, was unearthed in 1625 near the city of Changan and now stands in the “Forest of Tablets,” Changan. The following extract from the stone shows that the Sabbath was observed:

        “On the seventh day we offer sacrifices, after having purified our hearts, and received absolution for our sins. This religion, so perfect and so excellent, is difficult to name, but it enlightens darkness by its brilliant precepts.” Christianity in China, M. I’Abbe Huc, Vol. I, ch.2, pp. 48, 49

        Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Ninth Century A.D.

        INDIA, ABYSSINIA
        “Widespread and enduring was the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath among the believers of the Church of the East and the St. Thomas Christians of India. It was also maintained by the Abyssinians.

        Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Eleventh Century A.D.

        SCOTLAND
        They held that Saturday was properly the Sabbath on which they abstained from work. “Celtic Scotland,” Vol. 2, p. 350

        SCOTLAND
        “They worked on Sunday, but kept Saturday in a sabbatical manner…These things Margaret abolished.” A History of Scotland from the Roman Occupation,” Vol.1, p. 96.

        SCOTLAND
        (Historian Skene commenting upon the work of Queen Margaret) “Her next point was that they did not duly reverence the Lord’s day, but in this latter instance they seemed to have followed a custom of which we find traces in the early Church of Ireland, by which they held Saturday to be the Sabbath on which they rested from all their labours.” Skene, “Celtic Scotland,” Vol.2, p. 349

        SCOTLAND AND IRELAND
        “T. Ratcliffe Barnett, in his book on the fervent Catholic queen of Scotland who in 1060 was first to attempt the ruin of Columba’s brethren, writes: ‘In this matter the Scots had perhaps kept up the traditional usage of the ancient Irish Church which observed Saturday instead of Sunday as the day of rest.’” Barnett, “Margaret of Scotland: Queen and Saint,” p.97

        CONSTANTINOPLE
        “Because you observe the Sabbath with the Jews and the Lord’s Day with us, you seem to imitate with such observance the sect of Nazarenes.” Migne, “Patrologia Latina,” Vol. 145, p.506; also Hergenroether, “Photius,” Vol. 3, p.746. (The Nazarenes were a Christian denomination.)

        Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Twelveth Century A.D.

        LOMBARDY
        “Traces of Sabbath-keepers are found in the times of Gregory I, Gregory VII, and in the twelfth century in Lombardy.” Strong’s Cyclopaedia, 1, 660
        WALDENSES
        “Robinson gives an account of some of the Waldenses of the Alps, who were called Sabbati, Sabbatati, Insabbatati, but more frequently Inzabbatati. “One says they were so named from the Hebrew word Sabbath, because they kept the Saturday for the Lord’s day.’” General History of the Baptist Denomination, Vol.II, P. 413

        Lee,

        The evidence showing that the seventh day of the week was observed throughout the centuries is overwhelming. I will let you examine the rest of such evidence by reading all the material I provided the link for above. Here is the same link again:

        http://www.remnantofgod.org/sabhist.htm

      • Lee,

        You quoted me asking the following question:

        “Why did the Lord bless that day if no human kept it until the appearance of the Jews?”

        You went on a tangent, but never even attempted to answer my question. I did ask this question several times already, and I am still waiting for a reasonable answer!

        You wrote: “The Sabbath merely reflected the rest of God at creation depicting the rest of believers in Christ would have.”

        Yes, but why did he bless it? The text states the God blessed the seventh day and “made it holy.” Why would God sanctify a day of the week? Why did he make it holy? For what purpose?

        You wrote: “I have not read Desmond Ford, however, as I recall, “He was dismissed from ministry in the Adventist church in 1980 following his critique of the church’s investigative judgment teaching.” (Wikipedia)

        Yes, but he is still a member of the SDA church and he is a strong believer in the validity and permanence of the entire Decalogue. By the way, I did state to you previously that I do not believe in the Investigated Judgment doctrine.

        You wrote: “But if I understand you correctly, you are more so a Sabbaterian than a Seventh Day Adventist.”

        I am a Seventh-day Adventist. I do not think you really understand what it means to be a member of the SDA church.

        You wrote: “If you were truly a Day Adventist you would disagree with Bacchiocchi because he also rejects Ellen White’s view that the Roman Catholic church changed the Sabbath in the 4th century thus asserting that her visions were not of God.”

        Belief that Ellen White was infallible in everything she has written is not a requirement for membership in the Adventist church. Ellen herself asserted that only God was infallible.

        You stated: “I do not recognize J. N. Andrews as a creditable church historian nor can I agree with much of his theology. He was a very staunch anti-Trinitarian as were other Adventists of his day.”

        He was an anti-Trinitarian for a good reason.

        You said: “His close association with the White is also disturbing.”

        Very interesting! An anti-Trinitarian in close association with a Trinitarian, yet both in a close association with Jesus Christ.

        You wrote: “Bear in mind that Bacchiocchi’s research revealed that the norm for Sunday worship was by 135 AD.”

        If you reject Bacchiocchi, how come you rely on his authority? Can you give me his precise statement on this within its proper context?

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, You quoted me asking the following question: “Why did the Lord bless that day if no human kept it until the appearance of the Jews? ”You went on a tangent, but never even attempted to answer my question. I did ask this question several times already, and I am still waiting for a reasonable answer! You wrote: “The Sabbath merely reflected the rest of God at creation depicting the rest of believers in Christ would have.” Yes, but why did he bless it? The text states the God blessed the seventh day and “made it holy.” Why would God sanctify a day of the week? Why did he make it holy? For what purpose?

        ***While God blessed the seventh day, it only foretold of the rest the believer would have in Christ (Hebrews 4). It, however, served as the sign of the old Sinai tic Covenant and was not a part of the New Covenant. The entire focus of the Old Covenant dispensation is on Jesus; not on what we may or may not eat, or the observance of a particular day. You may also note that there was no such thing as a 7 day week prior to the time of Moses.

        Ex 12:2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

        God did not give his creation a calendar to follow. If He had wanted His creation to observe the Sabbath, He would also have given them the ‘week’, but He did not. The 7 day week was from the Jews and the Babylonian astrologers according to those who have studied the origin of the calendar.

        You wrote: “I have not read Desmond Ford, however, as I recall, “He was dismissed from ministry in the Adventist church in 1980 following his critique of the church’s investigative judgment teaching.” (Wikipedia) Yes, but he is still a member of the SDA church and he is a strong believer in the validity and permanence of the entire Decalogue.

        ***Yes, but Desmond Ford did a wonderful job in showing us that the heirloom of the Adventist church is indeed a false doctrine – the 1844 Sanctuary doctrine. He laments the fact that the SDA church continues to cleave unto it despite the fact that it cannot be supported by Scripture. He states that the doctrine was something they invented to account for their “Great Disappointment”.

        While I do read different viewpoints, I do not always agree with what I read. I think that may also be your problem in that you like many others, read only material that supports what they want to believe. For another thing, Desmond Ford subscribes to Replacement theology – the view that all the blessings of God given to Israel were transferred to the church. Under that view, if I recall, olde Ellen White believed her little group composed the 144,000 of Revelation.

        By the way, I did state to you previously that I do not believe in the Investigated Judgment doctrine. You wrote: “But if I understand you correctly, you are more so a Sabbaterian than a Seventh Day Adventist.” I am a Seventh-day Adventist. I do not think you really understand what it means to be a member of the SDA church. You wrote: “If you were truly a Seventh Day Adventist you would disagree with Bacchiocchi because he also rejects Ellen White’s view that the Roman Catholic church changed the Sabbath in the 4th century thus asserting that her visions were not of God.” Belief that Ellen White was infallible in everything she has written is not a requirement for membership in the Adventist church. Ellen herself asserted that only God was infallible.

        ***However while you say that belief in the writings of Ellen White are not a requirement for membership, subscribing to the 27 tenets of the Seventh Day Adventist church are. And they do state that you have to believe Ellen White’s writings are authoritative. Furthermore, a SDA has to pledge belief in Ellen White in order to be baptized. So if you are truly an SDA, you are far far far away from being an Orthodox SDA.

        You stated: “I do not recognize J. N. Andrews as a creditable church historian nor can I agree with much of his theology. He was a very staunch anti-Trinitarian as were other Adventists of his day.” He was an anti-Trinitarian for a good reason. You said: “His close association with the White is also disturbing.” Very interesting! An anti-Trinitarian in close association with a Trinitarian, yet both in a close association with Jesus Christ. You wrote: “Bear in mind that Bacchiocchi’s research revealed that the norm for Sunday worship was by 135 AD.”

        ***yes, to some degree there were differences among early Adventists. You have to remember that none of them were theologians but simply laypeople who studied their Bible without much tutoring.

        If you reject Bacchiocchi, how come you rely on his authority? Can you give me his precise statement on this within its proper context?

        ***As I stated I read material that always does not support each and every one of my religious convictions. However, I do believe that Bacchiocchi did find (as did many other church historians), that the early church no longer as a whole, observed the Jewish Sabbath by 135 AD. In other words, what I view is the consensus among church historians. If the norm of the church was communal worship on Sundays, that early date would support the view that Sabbath keeping was not taught in Gentile churches by either the Apostles themselves or by their immediate successors.

      • Lee,

        You wrote: “While God blessed the seventh day, it only foretold of the rest the believer would have in Christ (Hebrews 4).”

        I realize that the text can be interpreted in said manner. Nevertheless, the wording seems to imply a weekly physical and spiritual rest. Here is the text:

        New International Version (©1984)
        There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his.

        Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
        So then, it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

        GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
        Therefore, a time of rest and worship exists for God’s people.

        I need to remind you that God not only blessed the Sabbath, but he also made it holy:

        New International Version (©1984)
        By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
        The Lord did perform three actions connected with the first Sabbath following his creative work: He rested, he blessed the Sabbath, and he made it holy.

        Your explanations fails because they do not account for God’s triple action in a satisfactory manner. Why would God make a day of the week holy if his resting on said day was a mere symbol of what Jesus would do thousands of years later?

        What does making holy mean? Here is one commentary:

        Barnes’ Notes on the Bible

        “Thirdly, he blessed the seventh day. Blessing results in the bestowment of some good on the object blessed. The only good that can be bestowed on a portion of time is to dedicate it to a noble use, a special and pleasing enjoyment. Accordingly, in the forth place, he hallowed it or set it apart to a holy rest. …”

        You wrote: “You may also note that there was no such thing as a 7 day week prior to the time of Moses. … You may also note that there was no such thing as a 7 day week prior to the time of Moses.”

        Read the following commentary:

        Barnes’ Notes on the Bible

        “The present record is a sufficient proof that the original institution was never forgotten by man. …

        The measurement of time by weeks then appears Genesis 8:10, Genesis 8:12. The same division of time again comes up in the history of Jacob Genesis 29:27-28. This unit of measure is traceable to nothing but the institution of the seventh-day rest. …

        [Notice these three biblical references to the weekly cycle before the birth of Moses.]

        The Sabbath, therefore, is founded, not in nature, but in history. Its periodical return is marked by the numeration of seven days. It appeals not to instinct, but to memory, to intelligence. …

        Man’s rest, therefore, on this day is not only an act of communion with God in the satisfaction of resting after his work was done, but, at the same time, a thankful commemoration of that auspicious event in which the Almighty gave a noble origin and a happy existence to the human race. …

        It was intended, not for God himself, whose Sabbath does not end until the consummation of all things, but for man, whose origin it commemorates and whose end it foreshadows Mark 2:27. …”

        Notice the explanation given by Jesus:

        New International Version (©1984)

        Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

        If the Sabbath was made for man, and the first man was Adam, the logic demands the conclusion that the Sabbath was made for Adam and Eve—not for the Jews as you argue.

        You wrote: “***While God blessed the seventh day, it only foretold of the rest the believer would have in Christ (Hebrews 4).”

        Please, read the following:

        Clarke’s Commentary on the Bible

        “As this was the most ancient institution, God calls them to remember it; as if he had said, Do not forget that when I had finished my creation I instituted the Sabbath, and remember why I did so, and for what purposes. The word שבת shabbath signifies rest or cessation from labor; and the sanctification of the seventh day is commanded, as having something representative in it; and so indeed it has, for it typifies the rest which remains for the people of God, and in this light it evidently appears to have been understood by the apostle, Hebrews 4. Because this commandment has not been particularly mentioned in the New Testament as a moral precept binding on all, therefore some have presumptuously inferred that there is no Sabbath under the Christian dispensation.

        You stated: “The entire focus of the Old Covenant dispensation is on Jesus”

        Yes, but Jesus said that “the Sabbath was made for man.” There were no Jews when the Lord created Adam and Eve!

        You said: “***However while you say that belief in the writings of Ellen White are not a requirement for membership, subscribing to the 27 tenets of the Seventh Day Adventist church are.”

        You are wrong again. There are many Adventist pastors who do not even mention the 27 fundamental as requirements before a person is baptized.

        You wrote: “And they do state that you have to believe Ellen White’s writings are authoritative.”

        Authoritative does not mean that we need to accept her writings as infallible and the final interpretations of biblical truth. Ellen White repeatedly insisted that we need to study the Bible in our search for truth and that if we do this we will discover new revelations of what is hidden in Scripture.

        You stated: “Furthermore, a SDA has to pledge belief in Ellen White in order to be baptized.”

        Believing that she was used by God in the building of the SDA community of faith does not mean that I must believe that she was infallible. She herself did state that only God is infallible!

        You wrote: “However, I do believe that Bacchiocchi did find (as did many other church historians), that the early church no longer as a whole, observed the Jewish Sabbath by 135 AD.”

        Can you provide me his actual words within the proper context?

        Nic Samojluk

      • While virtually none of the early church leaders supported the observance of the Jewish Sabbath, the norm for communal worship was on the Lord’s day, Sunday believed started as a tradition established by the Apostles and their immediate successors.

        The early Gentile church by 135 AD no longer observed the Sabbath according to both Adventists and non-Adventists church historians. While Samuele Bacchiocchi blames this transition on the Roman emperor Hadrian and his suppression of the Jewish religion, this early date strongly suggested that the Apostles and their immediate successors did not teach Sabbath observance. I believe that this is really an inescapable conclusion.

        The fact still remains that there is nothing in either the Bible or in early church history that commands the observance of any day as holy. Most clearly if the Lord has wanted His church to observe the Sabbath we would have seen something of it in the New Testament as well as having been taught by the successors of the Apostles. And that is one major problem Adventists have in pitching the observance of the Jewish Sabbath.

        Unfortunately there has been some in the church that believed the Sabbath has been changed to Sunday (Barnes, Moody, Westminster divines, Puritans, et al) , this view is NOT held by most modern Bible expositors.

        Theologians such as those that created the Westminster Confessions believed that Sunday was not only the day of rest but of worship.

        XXI .7-8. Of Religious Worship and the Sabbath Day

        “As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him: which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week, which, in Scripture, is called the Lord’s Day, and is to continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath. This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs before-hand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations, but also are taken up, the whole time, in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.”

        Westminster Divines (2010-01-03). The Westminster Confession of Faith (Kindle Locations 359-362). . Kindle Edition.

        If Dudley Canright is correct that there was no weekly day of worship in paganism, we cannot say that Sunday worship was something borrowed from paganism. Early Christians were more than willing to die for their faith and they would have if they felt that they would be disobeying God by observing Sunday instead of Saturday. The Adventist view that the Roman Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday is simply untenable. And that clearly is one of the problems with the position as held by Ellen White.

        And it is correct that the entire focus of the Old Covenant dispensation is on Jesus who stated that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. This, however, was not a command to His church to observe the OT Sabbath. The audience here was exclusively Jewish and the answer to their accusation had to be answered in terms of the Jewish religion. Notice in this verse – Mark 2:27 that it followed the sayings of Jesus in sewing a new patch onto an old garment and using old wineskins for new wine (2:21-22). These sayings tell us that our Lord did not intent the Old Covenant tenets were to be part of the New Covenant. And that is one reason we do not see the Sabbath or any tenets that were strictly Jewish in the New Covenant as depicted by the New Testament.

        It is interesting that the observance of the OT Sabbath had become the means of measuring the spirituality of others. When Jesus healed the man who was blind, the Jewish religious leaders stated that Jesus could not be of God since He did not observe the Sabbath.

        John 9:16 Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”

        We could easily speculate that if the Sabbath was imposed onto the church, it would also have lost its original purpose as the religious hierarchy would have also used it as a means of measuring ones spirituality. And unfortunately that came to be the case when those who believed the Sabbath was transferred to Sunday, created laws governing it observance. We can be thankful that most of those old Puritan blue law have been removed from our legal system. Today the observance of Sunday is merely a day of communal worship and rest from regular employment.

        Yes you are wrong in that anyone that joins an Adventist church must subscribe to 28 basic beliefs as held by Adventism, especially those tenets that involve Ellen White as a messenger of God. Many Adventists pastors, theologians, scholars and simply Bible students have been forced out of the SDA church for not subscribing to these basic tenets. This is all too easy to see from the hundreds of published testimonies. I can provide to you websites if you want to verify this.

      • Lee, you wrote: “The early Gentile church by 135 AD no longer observed the Sabbath according to both Adventists and non-Adventists church historians.”

        This could be true, but I have been asking you to give me the actual quotation where Bacchiocchi and the other Adventist experts admit that by 135 AD the early Gentile church no longer kept the Jewish Sabbath.

        I did provide evidence showing that the Jewish Sabbath was observed by some Christians throughout the centuries.

      • Lee, you wrote: “The fact still remains that there is nothing in either the Bible or in early church history that commands the observance of any day as holy”

        Your argument from silence bears no weight on this issue. The Bible is silent on other important issues which are important for us Christians today like polygamy and slavery. Would you suggest that we are free to practice polygamy and slavery?

        I already explained why the Sabbath was omitted from the Jerusalem Council decree. It would have been redundant, since those Gentile “God-fearers” were already familiar with the worship on the Jewish Sabbath. Notice the explanation given by James following said Jerusalem decision:

        New International Version (©1984)
        “For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you wrote: “The fact still remains that there is nothing in either the Bible or in early church history that commands the observance of any day as holy”

        Your argument from silence bears no weight on this issue. The Bible is silent on other important issues which are important for us Christians today like polygamy and slavery. Would you suggest that we are free to practice polygamy and slavery?

        I already explained why the Sabbath was omitted from the Jerusalem Council decree. It would have been redundant, since those Gentile “God-fearers” were already familiar with the worship on the Jewish Sabbath. Notice the explanation given by James following said Jerusalem decision:

        New International Version (©1984)
        “For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you wrote: “The fact still remains that there is nothing in either the Bible or in early church history that commands the observance of any day as holy” Your argument from silence bears no weight on this issue.

        ***Quite the contrary as you are really finding fault with the Bible. What we follow Jesus and His words are sufficient for every aspect of our Christian walk. It contains the standard by which we will be judged.

        You also are standing in judgment of the saints of His church who throughout the centuries did not observe the Jewish Sabbath. What right does Adventism have in claiming they alone have all the truth?

        Early church history does not support your contention on those distinctive doctrines of Adventism – a relatively new religion birthed in the fanaticalism of the early 1800’s.

        (Suggest you actually take the time and read Canright “Life of Mrs. E. G. White: her Claims Refuted” he writes of several others – Ann Lee & the Shakers, Mary Eddy Baker, Emmanuel Swedenborg, Joanna Southcott, el al. all of whom were visionaries much the same level as Ellen White. About the only difference is that Ellen had a husband that exploited her visions as a means of financial gain and control.) I can understand your reluctance to look at these issues from all sides but if I can do that in finding the truth, why cannot you?

        –The Bible is silent on other important issues which are important for us Christians today like polygamy and slavery. Would you suggest that we are free to practice polygamy and slavery?

        Romans 13:9-10 is sufficient to answer how we should treat others. Slavery & polygamy found its death with Christianity as Christians were the leaders against these social evils.

        –I already explained why the Sabbath was omitted from the Jerusalem Council decree. It would have been redundant, since those Gentile “God-fearers” were already familiar with the worship on the Jewish Sabbath. Notice the explanation given by James following said Jerusalem decision: New International Version (©1984)“For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” Nic Samojluk
        ***Your explanation as to why the Jewish Sabbath was left out of the Jerusalem council Acts 15 is unsatisfactory as you simply assume far too much that is negated by historical facts. When Acts 15:1 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” So should Gentile Christians heeded the law of Moses? After all the Council was convened because bthere were Jewish Christians that believed Gentiles should be required to become circumcised and observe the laws of Moses.
        (15:5)Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.”

        I do not believe like the Adventists do that the issue was only only only about circumcision. Circumcision was only only only the rite of entry into Judaism.

        And you ignore the fact that at this time, Gentiles were coming into the church and were not apart from Jewish Christians. Unfortunately the traditional dislike of Gentiles by the Jews was something that in part, caused Gentiles to eventually part company with Jewish believers. We clearly see this problem amplified in the confrontation between Peter and Paul when the party of James came to Antioch from Jerusalem; Peter separated himself.

      • Lee, you wrote: “Quite the contrary as you are really finding fault with the Bible.”

        I do not find fault with the Bible, but rather with your unbiblical views. The Bible is fine, but not perfect, since it was written by fallible men, and more so considering that we do not have access to the original manuscripts.

        You said: “You also are standing in judgment of the saints of His church who throughout the centuries did not observe the Jewish Sabbath.”

        Most of the saints departed from the truth as was predicted by the Apostle Paul. Bacchiocchi did explain how this took place and why this happened. Nevertheless, there have always been members of the Remnant Christian Church who remained faithful to all the Ten Rules for human behavior, including the Sabbath.

        You wrote: “What right does Adventism have in claiming they alone have all the truth?”

        I do not believe that there is any human religious organization possessing all the truth. Some Adventist do believe this, but I do not share this! We all have come short of God’s glory. But, as far as the Sabbath is concerned, I am convinced that we Adventists are on the right track.

        You wrote: “About the only difference is that Ellen had a husband that exploited her visions as a means of financial gain and control.”

        If financial gain was the motivation of James White, he would not have allowed the church to invest so much into Christian education. Christian education is a black hole which keeps swallowing all the money which comes close to it.

        The same can be said about evangelism. When Ellen White died, she had a huge debt which took many years to erase. She kept borrowing all the money she could for the advancement of the Gospel.

        You stated: “Slavery & polygamy found its death with Christianity as Christians were the leaders against these social evils.”

        You use silence to deny the validity and permanence of Sabbath worship, and at the same time to affirm the death of polygamy. You can’t have it both ways!

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you wrote: “Theologians such as those that created the Westminster Confessions believed that Sunday was not only the day of rest but of worship.“

        Doesn’t this negate most of your arguments against the Jewish Sabbath. If the Catholic did not transfer the sanctity of the Jewish Sabbath to Sunday, then who did? Did not the Anglicans inherit Sunday observance from Rome? Read the following taken from the Presbyterian web page:

        Observance of the Sabbath
        “The Sabbath goes back to the creation of the world, when it was ordained by God for all the ages, as a basic structure of human life, along with marriage and labor.

        To remember the Sabbath means to uphold its distinctiveness from other days of the week. This is a precept of the enduring moral law, set down in the ten commandments. When those ten words were first given, observance of the Sabbath was grounded in a recognition of what God had done in bringing the world into existence. When the ten commandments were reissued in Deuteronomy, a further reason was given for Sabbath observance, for now the people were exhorted to consider that God had redeemed them from bondage. These two considerations were summed up in the ninety-second Psalm, designated as intended for the Sabbath, when worshipers were called to reflect on mighty works of all kinds done by God. The Sabbath is a day to worship God for what he has done. …”

        http://www.westminsterconfession.org/identity/observance-of-the-sabbath.php

        Do you need more evidence than this to admit that your position is wrong?

        You also stated: “The Adventist view that the Roman Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday is simply untenable. And that clearly is one of the problems with the position as held by Ellen White.”

        How can you arrive at this strange conclusion, given what you and I have discovered about the Westminster Confession?

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you wrote: “Theologians such as those that created the Westminster Confessions believed that Sunday was not only the day of rest but of worship.“

        Doesn’t this negate most of your arguments against the Jewish Sabbath. If the Catholic did not transfer the sanctity of the Jewish Sabbath to Sunday, then who did? Did not the Anglicans inherit Sunday observance from Rome? Read the following taken from the Presbyterian web page:

        Observance of the Sabbath
        “The Sabbath goes back to the creation of the world, when it was ordained by God for all the ages, as a basic structure of human life, along with marriage and labor.

        To remember the Sabbath means to uphold its distinctiveness from other days of the week. This is a precept of the enduring moral law, set down in the ten commandments. When those ten words were first given, observance of the Sabbath was grounded in a recognition of what God had done in bringing the world into existence. When the ten commandments were reissued in Deuteronomy, a further reason was given for Sabbath observance, for now the people were exhorted to consider that God had redeemed them from bondage. These two considerations were summed up in the ninety-second Psalm, designated as intended for the Sabbath, when worshipers were called to reflect on mighty works of all kinds done by God. The Sabbath is a day to worship God for what he has done. …”

        http://www.westminsterconfession.org/identity/observance-of-the-sabbath.php

        Do you need more evidence than this to admit that your position is wrong?

        You also stated: “The Adventist view that the Roman Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday is simply untenable. And that clearly is one of the problems with the position as held by Ellen White.”

        How can you arrive at this strange conclusion, given what you and I have discovered about the Westminster Confession?

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you wrote: “Theologians such as those that created the Westminster Confessions believed that Sunday was not only the day of rest but of worship.“ Doesn’t this negate most of your arguments against the Jewish Sabbath.

        ***Not at all, as the Sabbath as it was originally commanded was a day of rest from normal labor, but later also became a day of worship with evening and morning sacrifices, etc.

        If the Catholic did not transfer the sanctity of the Jewish Sabbath to Sunday, then who did?

        ***No one transferred the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. What occurred was communal worship on Sunday as they broke bread and worshipped Jesus – something they could not have done in Jewish synagogues. DA Carson who edited a compilation by various scholars entitled “From Sabbath to Lord’s Day – a biblical, historical and theological investigation” depicts the fact that the early church met on the Lord’s day as well as the Sabbath. But that all changed when the Jewish establishment forbid Christians to worship in the synagogues.

        The view held by Adventism that the Roman Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday is totally untenable since the Roman Church makes the claim that they were the only church started when Peter was made the first pope by Christ and that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday during the time of the Apostles. Now I know that runs totally contrary to the crap you often hear from your pulpit, but if you do the research you will find that true. It is indeed unfortunate that Adventism needs their hatred of Roman Catholicism as prejudice does often keep the flock in line.

        So who changed the Sabbath?! No one. Communal worship on Sundays characterized only the Gentile church who followed the tradition established by the Apostles and their immediate successors. Scholars tell us that the Gentile church as a whole observed Sunday as the day of communal worship and that by early second century.
        —————
        Did not the Anglicans inherit Sunday observance from Rome? Read the following taken from the Presbyterian web page: Observance of the Sabbath “The Sabbath goes back to the creation of the world, when it was ordained by God for all the ages, as a basic structure of human life, along with marriage and labor. To remember the Sabbath means to uphold its distinctiveness from other days of the week. This is a precept of the enduring moral law, set down in the ten commandments. When those ten word were first given, observance of the Sabbath was grounded in a recognition of what God had done in bringing the world into existence. When the ten commandments were reissued in Deuteronomy, a further reason was given for Sabbath observance, for now the people were exhorted to consider that God had redeemed them from bondage. These two considerations were summed up in the ninety-second Psalm, designated as intended for the Sabbath, when worshipers were called to reflect on mighty works of all kinds done by God. The Sabbath is a day to worship God for what he has done. …” http://www.westminsterconfession.org/identity/observance-of-the-sabbath.php Do
        you need more evidence than this to admit that your position is wrong?

        ***I recognize the fact that many throughout the centuries actually believed the Sabbath was transferred by Christ to Sunday. I can only concur with the view that Scripture really does not mandate the observance of any day including Sunday.

        You also stated: “The Adventist view that the Roman Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday is simply untenable. And that clearly is one of the problems with the position as held by Ellen White.” How can you arrive at this strange conclusion, given what you and I have discovered about the Westminster Confession? Nic Samojluk

        ***Do the research and you will find that while the Roman Church claims to have changed the Sabbath to Sunday, they also claim their church did that back in the days of the Apostles. Old Ellen on the other hand believed the Roman pope made a decree to change the Sabbath to Sunday but no Adventist to date has been able to identify a pope or a council from which that was done. When? The best Adventists can do is to point to the Council of Laodicea but that city is far away from Rome and was strictly a regional council attended by Greek bishops; it is doubtful if Rome even had a representative.

        No one agrees totally with the Westminster Confessions made back in the 1646 and has been revised several times since then. The church I attend, an Orthodox Presbyterian church magnifies the Westminster Confessions howbeit the pastor there who is working on his doctorate degree was found to have some disagreements with the confession. Go figure!

      • Lee, you wrote: “DA Carson who edited a compilation by various scholars entitled “From Sabbath to Lord’s Day – a biblical, historical and theological investigation” depicts the fact that the early church met on the Lord’s day as well as the Sabbath. But that all changed when the Jewish establishment forbid Christians to worship in the synagogues.”

        Thank you for confirming what actually happened. This seems to match what Bacchiocchi discovered as a result of his investigation. Originally, both Jewish and Gentile Christians did observe both days, and later on the majority of Christians abandoned Sabbath worship.

        You wrote: “The view held by Adventism that the Roman Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday is totally untenable”

        According to the scholarly investigation performed by Bacchiocchi, the change from Sabbath to Sunday took place in Rome. I believe that he is correct on this theory.

        You quoted the Anglican Westminster Confession:

        “The Sabbath goes back to the creation of the world, when it was ordained by God for all the ages, as a basic structure of human life, along with marriage and labor. To remember the Sabbath means to uphold its distinctiveness from other days of the week. This is a precept of the enduring moral law, set down in the ten commandments. When those ten word were first given, observance of the Sabbath was grounded in a recognition of what God had done in bringing the world into existence. When the ten commandments were reissued in Deuteronomy, a further reason was given for Sabbath observance, for now the people were exhorted to consider that God had redeemed them from bondage. These two considerations were summed up in the ninety-second Psalm, designated as intended for the Sabbath, when worshipers were called to reflect on mighty works of all kinds done by God. The Sabbath is a day to worship God for what he has done.”

        …” http://www.westminsterconfession.org/identity/observance-of-the-sabbath.phpDo

        And then you said:

        “you need more evidence than this to admit that your position is wrong?”

        I have been piling evidence on evidence, but you seem to be determined to negate what is crystal clear to me, to Adventists, to Dr. Bacchiocchi, and even to those who wrote the Westminster Confession.

        You wrote: “Do the research and you will find that while the Roman Church claims to have changed the Sabbath to Sunday, they also claim their church did that back in the days of the Apostles.”

        This should not surprise anybody! Error usually comes mixed with truth. Naked error is normally rejected by people. In order to succeed, error needs to be wedded to truth to succeed.

        You said: “Old Ellen on the other hand believed the Roman pope made a decree to change the Sabbath to Sunday but no Adventist to date has been able to identify a pope or a council from which that was done.”

        Ellen was not a historian, while Bacchiocchi was one!

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you wrote: “And it is correct that the entire focus of the Old Covenant dispensation is on Jesus who stated that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.”

        Yes, Jesus is at the center of the Old Testament, but this does not negate what Jesus said about the Sabbath. He stated that the Sabbath was made for man, and when God blessed and made it holy there were no Jews but only Adam and Eve.

        You wrote: “. Many Adventists pastors, theologians, scholars and simply Bible students have been forced out of the SDA church for not subscribing to these basic tenets.”

        Many Adventist pastors were defrocked, but they were not disfellowshipped from the Adventist Church.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you wrote: “And it is correct that the entire focus of the Old Covenant dispensation is on Jesus who stated that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.”

        Yes, Jesus is at the center of the Old Testament, but this does not negate what Jesus said about the Sabbath. He stated that the Sabbath was made for man, and when God blessed and made it holy there were no Jews but only Adam and Eve.

        You wrote: “. Many Adventists pastors, theologians, scholars and simply Bible students have been forced out of the SDA church for not subscribing to these basic tenets.”

        Many Adventist pastors were defrocked, but they were not disfellowshipped from the Adventist Church.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Mt 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

      • Lee, you quoted Mt 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.”

        Did Jesus observe Sunday as the day of rest? He rested on the Sabbath after creation, he blessed said day, and made it holy thousands of years before the birth of the Jewish nation, he reminded them to keep said day holy, he predicted that said day would be kept in the earth made new.

        He kept it while on earth, he even kept it while waiting for resurrection Sunday, he advised his followers to pray that their flight would not take on the Sabbath day, and he told us through his servant John that there would be a Remnant keeping God’s Commandments before his return.

        Nic Samojluk

  44. I believe that I can challenge anything you have from history as to your contention that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday, that some in the early church and throughout its history have observed the Jewish Sabbath for one reason or another.

    But what you presented here is far too much of a bite to reply in a few sentences, so I will start with Laodicea.

    When Adventists were challenged to state WHEN was the Sabbath changed to Sunday, the best they could do was to point to Laodicea AD 364. But that council was strictly a regional council attended by Greek bishops, no one from the church at Rome was even in attendance.

    This Christian council plainly states that the Jewish Sabbath was no longer to be kept, while the Lord’s Day was. The twenty-ninth canon says: “Christians ought not to Judaize, and to rest in the Sabbath, but to work in that day; but preferring the Lord’s Day, should rest, if possible, as Christians. Wherefore if they shall be found to Judaize, let them be accursed from Christ.” Thirty-two bishops were present, all Greeks, in the Eastern Church. Did they know which day the Church kept at that date? Surely. They agree with all the witnesses already quoted. At that date keeping the Jewish Sabbath was condemned, and the Lord’s Day approved.

    Canright, D.M. (2011-06-20). The Lord’s Day From Neither Catholics nor Pagans An Answer to Seventh-Day Adventism on this Subject (Kindle Locations 1676-1677). . Kindle Edition.

    Eusebius, A.D. 324 Eusebius was born in Palestine, the very home of Christ and the apostles and the cradle of the early Church. He was Bishop of Caesarea where Paul abode two years (Acts 23:33; 24:27). He studied at Antioch where Paul labored for years (Acts 15: 1). He traveled to Egypt and over Asia Minor. He was one of the most noted men of his age. He wrote the first history of the Christian Church and bears the title of “Father of Church History.” The “Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia” says: “As a repertory of facts and documents, his work is invaluable.” Johnson’s “Cyclopedia” says: “He was very eminent for learning, as well as talents.” Home’s “Introduction” says: “A man of extraordinary learning, diligence and judgment, and singularly studious in the . . . . His chief work is his ‘Ecclesiastical History,’ in which he records the history of Christianity from its commencement to his own time. . . . He has delivered, not his own private opinion, but the opinion of the Church, the sum of what he had found in the writings of the primitive Christians.”53 He had every possible opportunity to know what Christians did throughout the world. Of him Justin Edwards, D. D., says: “He lived in the third century, was a man of vast reading, and was as well acquainted with the history of the Church from the days of the apostles as any man of his day.” At Caesarea was “a very extensive library, to which Eusebius had constant access. He was a learned and accurate historian and had the aid of the best helps for acquiring information upon all subjects connected with the Christian Church.”54 He lived right there, knew just what Christians did, and wrote about fifty years before the Council of Laodicea where Adventists say the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. True, there was a small heretical sect who kept the Sabbath as Judaizers do now. Of them he says: They are “those who cherish low and mean opinions of Christ. . . . With them the observance of the law was altogether necessary [just like Seventh-Day Adventists] as if they could not be saved only by faith in Christ and a corresponding life. . . . They also observe the Sabbath and other discipline of the Jews just like them, but on the other hand they also celebrate the Lord’s Days very much like us in commemoration of His resurrection.” (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, pp. 112-113)

    Even these Judaizers kept Sunday. On the Ninety-second Psalm he says: “The word by the new covenant translated and transferred the feast of the Sabbath to the morning light and gave us the true rest, viz., the saving Lord’s Day.” “On this day which is the first of light and of the true Sun, we assemble, after an interval of six days, and celebrate holy and spiritual Sabbaths, even all nations redeemed by him throughout the world, and do those things according to the spiritual law which were decreed for the priests to do on the Sabbath.” Again: “And all things whatsoever that it was the duty to do on the Sabbath, these we have transferred to the Lord’s Day as more honorable than the Jewish Sabbath.” (Eusebius, Commentary on Psalms 92)

    Canright, D.M. (2011-06-20). The Lord’s Day From Neither Catholics nor Pagans An Answer to Seventh-Day Adventism on this Subject (Kindle Location 1592). . Kindle Edition.

    So you are correct that there were some in the ancient church that observed both the Jewish Sabbath and the Lord’s Day.

    I think is really revealing is the research by Samuele Bacchiocchi who found that communal worship on Sundays was the norm by 135 AD. He, however, blames the edicts of Roman Emperor Hadrian who had to crush the Jewish rebellions.

    • Lee,

      You wrote: “I believe that I can challenge anything you have from history as to your contention that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday”

      You seem to have misinterpreted the material I posted. My objective was simply to provide historical evidence that the seventh-day Sabbath was observed by some Christians throughout history. You did deny this, and the evidence seems to counter your assertion.

      You also stated: “When Adventists were challenged to state WHEN was the Sabbath changed to Sunday, the best they could do was to point to Laodicea AD 364.”

      I have nothing to do with setting a date for the shift in observance of the Sabbath. I prefer to discuss what I have stated instead of what other Adventists have said. My personal view is that change of attitude toward Sabbath observance was rather gradual and setting a precise date may be fraught with danger.

      You cite Canright as an authority. I do have his book in my library. He is probably the last person I would rely on. My understanding is that he was looking for a larger audience among Sunday keepers than the Adventist church could provide for his enlarged ego.

      Nic Samojluk

      • Jesus and the disciples keeping the Sabbath in the New Testament should really bring this Sunday Vs. Saturday-Sabbath issue to closure!

        The Vatican clearly states they changed the Sabbath . . . Period!

        Why is this so hard to understand!

        Roger Slonaker
        Reynoldsburg, OH

      • Roger,

        Yes! I agree 120 percent. It is hard to understand for those who have not tasted the blessings connected with Sabbath observance.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Yes Roger, Adventism and Ellen White claimed the Vatican – the Roman Catholic church- changed the Sabbath to the Lord’s Day Sunday, however if you were to study the issue further you would see that they claim they made the change back in the time of the Apostles. You ignore the fact that the Roman Church believes theiir origin was when Christ made Peter the first pope. While you can kick up your heels and yell how blessed it is to observe the jewish Sabbath, the true blessings belong to those who are in the presence of Christ. “Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name there am I in their midst.” Those born of God’s spirit realize and can feel that.

        Yes, we should close this topic since it is obvious that it will not benefit of us. lee jensen riolion@msn.com

      • Lee, you wrote:

        “The entire focus of the Old Covenant dispensation is on Jesus; not on what we may or may not eat, or the observance of a particular day.”

        Let me tell you a little bit about my family experience. Almost a century ago my parents were living in the country of Ukraine, and they were devoted Orthodox believers.

        They believed like you do that Christianity had nothing to do with the observance of particular day of the week. Their emphasis was on Jesus Christ and his resurrection; they went to church on Sundays in honor of Jesus’ resurrection.

        They believed that Christianity had nothing to do with food or drink; they raised pigs for food, they drank alcoholic beverages—including vodka, and my father was addicted to cigarettes.

        One day, an Adventist evangelist came to their small town preaching Jesus Christ, the Remnant message found in the book of Revelation, the need to observe the Ten Commandments, and the need to keep our bodies holy because it was God’s Temple where the Holy Spirit dwelt.

        This new message made a great impact on them and it was a great struggle for them to abandon their harmful lifestyle, but they accepted the challenge to consecrate they bodies to the Lord who had sacrificed much in order to save them.

        My uncle did not accept the Remnant’s message preached by this Adventist evangelist. He continued his old lifestyle, he kept on smoking his cigarettes, drinking his favorite drink—vodka–and raising pigs for food. He died childless of cirrhosis of the liver.

        In contrast, my parents greatly enjoyed their change of lifestyle. They did all these for their love of Jesus and could see a great difference in their health benefits. They had three children and many grandchildren who went through the Adventist education system and many of them became pastors and workers for the Lord.

        I have seen in my family the benefits of the Adventist beliefs and lifestyle. You seem determined to convince me that my parents made a big mistake in accepting the Adventist faith. Your effort seem to be misguided and futile.

        If I were to adopt your beliefs, I would probably go back to the Orthodox religion. I would be tempted to start smoking, drinking, and eating non-kosher food. There is nothing in the Bible against tobacco, marijuana, or cocaine. The Apostle Paul advised Timothy to drink wine for the sake of his weak stomach. Slavery and polygamy are not condemned in the New Testament.

        Is this what you want for me and my family? It seems to me that what you are doing is an exercise in futility. You are defending what is not condemned in the New Testament. You need to remember what Jesus told his disciples when he said:

        There are many things I would like to tell you, but you are not ready to receive them. [my paraphrase]

        You believe that all we need to teach is summarized in Acts 15, which you have cited in the past:

        New International Version (©1984)
        Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

        But you are forgetting the context which explains why the Sabbath is not mentioned in the New Testament as a command:

        New International Version (©1984)
        For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.

        There you have the reason for thee lack of need for the inclusion of the Sabbath commandment in the instruction given in Acts 15: Those Jewish converts were familiar with the Sabbath. They had heard and practiced the observance thee Sabbath observance when they attended the Jewish synagogues.

      • Lee, you wrote:“The entire focus of the Old Covenant dispensation is on Jesus; not on what we may or may not eat, or the observance of a particular day.”Let me tell you a little bit about my family experience. Almost a century ago my parents were living in the country of Ukraine, and they were devoted Orthodox believers. They believed like you do that Christianity had nothing to do with the observance of particular day of the week. Their emphasis was on Jesus Christ and his resurrection; they went to church on Sundays in honor of Jesus’ resurrection. They believed that Christianity had nothing to do with food or drink; they raised pigs for food, they drank alcoholic beverages—including vodka, and my father was addicted to cigarettes. One day, an Adventist evangelist came to their small town preaching Jesus Christ, the Remnant message found in the book of Revelation, the need to observe the Ten Commandments, and the need to keep our bodies holy because it was God’s Temple where the Holy Spirit dwelt. This new message made a great impact on them and it was a great struggle for them to abandon their harmful lifestyle, but they accepted the challenge to consecrate they bodies to the Lord who had sacrificed much in order to save them. My uncle did not accept the Remnant’s message preached by this Adventist evangelist. He continued his old lifestyle, he kept on smoking his cigarettes, drinking his favorite drink—vodka–and raising pigs for food. He died childless of cirrhosis of the liver. In contrast, my parents greatly enjoyed their change of lifestyle. They did all these for their love of Jesus and could see a great difference in their health benefits. They had three children and many grandchildren who went through the Adventist education system and many of them became pastors and workers for the Lord. I have seen in my family the benefits of the Adventist beliefs and lifestyle. You seem determined to convince me that my parents made a big mistake in accepting the Adventist faith. Your effort seem to be misguided and futile. If I were to adopt your beliefs, I would probably go back to the Orthodox religion. I would be tempted to start smoking, drinking, and eating non-kosher food. There is nothing in the Bible against tobacco, marijuana, or cocaine. The Apostle Paul advised Timothy to drink wine for the sake of his weak stomach. Slavery and polygamy are not condemned in the New Testament. Is this what you want for me and my family? It seems to me that what you are doing is an exercise in futility. You are defending what is not condemned in the New Testament. You need to remember what Jesus told his disciples when he said: There are many things I would like to tell you, but you are not ready to receive them. [my paraphrase] You believe that all we need to teach is summarized in Acts 15, which you have cited in the past: New International Version (©1984) Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. But you are forgetting the context which explains why the Sabbath is not mentioned in the New Testament as a command: New International Version (©1984) For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath. There you have the reason for thee lack of need for the inclusion of the Sabbath commandment in the instruction given in Acts 15: Those Jewish converts were familiar with the Sabbath. They had heard and practiced the observance thee Sabbath observance when they attended the Jewish synagogues.

        The issue I have with Adventism is not their views on health. If you and your ancestry were brought up to be Mormons, most likely you would have the same benefits from good health habits. I have relatives that are Mormons and they are very careful in practicing good health habits. One can be a good Christian and have good health habits. We are indeed wise if we are give our bodies the proper care and that would include avoiding tobacco products, not eat food that are high in fats or may not be properly prepared, as well as not drinking excessively. I once met an elderly gentlemen in a village while I was in the Philippines. He was 104 years old. I asked him what he did to prolong his life and he told me that he did not eat meat except fish, smoked but not to excess. I did not ask him what his religion was but since most of that country is Roman Catholic I merely assumed that he was. However, his religion had nothing to do with his good health habits.

        The fact is the your lifespan is influenced more by genetics than anything else.

        What however, does the Scripture teach us about food that we eat?

        Matthew 15:17-18 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

        Mark 7:18-19 And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

        1Co 6:13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

        1Co 8:8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.

        Having been overseas I have found some things I will not eat – dog meat, monkey brains, blood, snails, etc. but in very poor countries people eat just about anything to stay alive.

        One may go to far with his belief in foods -

        Col 2:23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

        You say that an Adventist evangelist converted your family in getting them to believe one should observe the ten commandments. This to me is the bait that Adventist use to trap people into their denomination. They simply ask the naïve person what he thinks of the 10 commandments. Also always the answer is one of a high regard for the ten commandments. Nearly all children when they get into a catechism class learns the 10 commandments and are taught that they should observe them to be righteous. The problem is that Adventists will point out that the fourth commandments, the Sabbath commandment, pertains to observance of Saturday, not Sunday. And then they promote the false view that the evil Roman Catholic church was the one that changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Of course, most nominal Christians know little or nothing about church history or the Bible. They simply do not realize that there is nothing in the New Covenant that mandated the observance of any day; that communal worship on Sundays is merely a tradition likely established by the Apostles and followed by their immediate successors. Since church historians tell us that the church as a whole did not observe the Jewish

        The verse you tried to quote that Jesus said “There are many things I would like to tell you, but you are not ready to receive them.” is in John 16:12

        12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

        But the very next verse tells us -

        13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
        While it is somewhat true that not all truth is clearly spend out in the Bible, we must be careful.

        John 21:25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

        The Roman Church often uses this verse to justify what they believe is sacred tradition.

        They argue that all truth has been invested with the Church, however, not all truth has been revealed but will be revealed in its time.

        The verse you alluded to in Acts 15:19-20

        Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

        Biblical expositors hold the view that since the church during these times was a MIXTURE of Jews and Gentiles, a compromise had to be made as Jews had deep seated kosher food views.

        15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

        Remember the issue was really whether Gentiles had to become circumcised and convert to Judaism to be legitimate. Circumcision was initial rite into the Jewish religion. Once a person became circumcised, he was obligated to observe all the laws of Judaism including the dietary laws, the Sabbath as well as other laws that were distinctly Jewish. That is borne out by -

        15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, AND AND AND to command them to keep the law of Moses.

        However, I believe it was the will of God that Gentiles were to become totally separate and apart from their Jewish roots and that happened when the leadership of the church became Gentile after the Jewish church was destroyed during the Jewish rebellions.

      • Lee, you wrote: “Sunday believed started as a tradition established by the Apostles and their immediate successors.”

        If you read what we find in the book of Acts, you will discover that the opposite seems to be true. In chapter 16, which is a mere chapter after the record of the Jerusalem Council, we find the following:

        New International Version (©1984)
        “On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.”

        Notice that this Sabbath meeting took place on the Jewish Sabbath, not in the Jewish synagogue; and that Lydia, a “ worshiper of God, attended this Sabbath meeting.

        The term worshiper of God—not a proselyte—is significant. In those times, there were many individuals who did worship God with the Jews. They were not converts, but did worship God on the Jewish Sabbath. These individuals were also known as “God fearers.”

        Then in chapter 17 we find the record of additional meetings which did take place on the Jewish Sabbath:

        New International Version (©1984)
        “When they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Christ,” he said. Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and not a few prominent women.”

        Notice the presence of “God-fearing Greeks” in said Jewish Sabbath meetings. This is additional evidence that these God-fearing individuals were accustomed to worshiping with the Jews in their synagogue on the Jewish day of worship.

        This is why the inclusion of the Sabbath was not needed in Acts 15 at the Jerusalem Council. Why imposing on them what they were already familiar with. It would have been redundant.

        Nic Samojluk

      • In your reference in Acts 16, it is true that the Apostles sought to first present the gospel to the Jewish people. In that it makes sense that they would first go into the Jewish synagogues or seek out other places where Jews congregated as was the case with Lydia who met with Paul at the nearby river. Whether Lydia was Jewish or a proselyte or simply someone that had adopted from their parents, or other sources, belief in the God of the Jews, we really do not know.

        In Acts 17, we have Paul going into the Jewish synagogues to present the Gospel. Those “God-fearing Greeks” (devout Greeks-AV, EVS, NKJV; God-fearing – HCSB, NIV), most likely were proselytes since only Jews and proselytes were welcome at Jewish worship services)

        Yes, we can agree that both Jews and proselytes to Judaism observed the Sabbath as well as circumcision.

      • Lee, you said: “In your reference in Acts 16, it is true that the Apostles sought to first present the gospel to the Jewish people. In that it makes sense that they would first go into the Jewish synagogues or seek out other places where Jews congregated as was the case with Lydia who met with Paul at the nearby river.”

        Near the river is not a Jewish synagogue!

        You also said: “Those “God-fearing Greeks” (devout Greeks-AV, EVS, NKJV; God-fearing – HCSB, NIV), most likely were proselytes since only Jews and proselytes were welcome at Jewish worship services)”

        Please check your sources! The fundamental difference between proselytes and God fearers was that only proselytes were circumcised and required to keep the Jewish laws. You suggestion that only proselytes were welcome atg Jewish worship services is in error! Read the following:

        “God-fearers were people who worshiped with Jews, but did not live as if they were Jewish (Scott, 347.). The two groups are similar in that they engaged in monotheism, identified with the Temple (and later, the synagogue), and followed the moral standards of Judaism.”

        http://martinsseminarystory.devhub.com/blog/553316-the-jews/

      • Lee, you said: “In your reference in Acts 16, it is true that the Apostles sought to first present the gospel to the Jewish people. In that it makes sense that they would first go into the Jewish synagogues or seek out other places where Jews congregated as was the case with Lydia who met with Paul at the nearby river.” Near the river is not a Jewish synagogue!

        ***True, but we really have no good reason to believe that Paul limited his presentation of the gospel to the Jewish synagogues. Matthew Pooles commentary identifies her as a proselyte to the Jewish religion.

        You also said: “Those “God-fearing Greeks” (devout Greeks-AV, EVS, NKJV; God-fearing – HCSB, NIV), most likely were proselytes since only Jews and proselytes were welcome at Jewish worship services)” Please check your sources! The fundamental difference between proselytes and God fearers was that only proselytes were circumcised and required to keep the Jewish laws. You suggestion that only proselytes were welcome at Jewish worship services is in error!

        Read the following: “God-fearers were people who worshiped with Jews, but did not live as if they were Jewish (Scott, 347.). The two groups are similar in that they engaged in monotheism, identified with the Temple (and later, the synagogue), and followed the moral standards of Judaism.” http://martinsseminarystory.devhub.com/blog/553316-the-jews

        ***Possibly true as Barnes commentary has the following:

        And of the devout Greeks. Religious Greeks; or, of those who worshipped God. Those were so denoted who had renounced the worship of idols, and who attended on the worship of the synagogue, but who were not fully admitted to the privileges of Jewish proselytes. They were called, by the Jews, proselytes of the gate.

        John Gills Commentary however has the following comment.

        and with the devout persons; that is, with the Gentiles, who were proselytes to the Jewish religion, and worshipped the God of Israel with the Jews, in their synagogues, but knew nothing of Jesus Christ, and the way of salvation by him:

        Adams Clark’s commentary also identifies these ‘devout Greeks’ as being proselytes.

        Since there seems to be a consensus as to who those God-fearing Greeks were, I am inclined to believe they were proselytes of one sort or another.

        It is doubtful that there were people who feared God apart from being proselytes or having been influenced by Judaism.

      • Lee, you wrote: “Matthew Pooles commentary identifies her as a proselyte to the Jewish religion.”

        But the Bible identifies her as a “ worshiper of God.” The Bible is consistent on this. Worshipers of God did worship with the Jews in their synagogues, but they were not proselytes. Worshipers of God, or God fearers, were not circumcised, which was a fundamental ritual for becoming full members of the Jewish faith.

        A classic example is that of Cornelius who was a God fearer and a worshiper of God, but he was not a proselyte.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you said: “1Co 8:8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.”
        Did you read the context?

        New International Version (©1984)
        “Now about food sacrificed to idols:”

        The context clearly indicates that the topic is not foods in general, but rather foods which had been offered to idols.

      • 17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable.
        18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,
        19 “because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?”
        20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.
        21 “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
        22 “thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.
        23 “All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

      • Lee, you quoted the following:

        “And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.”

        The Bible also teaches that our physical body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Modern science has discovered that the Adventist lifestyle has many benefits for our health.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you quoted the following:
        “And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.”
        The Bible also teaches that our physical body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Modern science has discovered that the Adventist lifestyle has many benefits for our health.
        Nic Samojluk
        ***While the scripture does state that our bodies as well as identifies the church as being the temple of His Spirit, does not mean that we cannot eat properly cooked foods.1 Cor. 3:16, 1 Cor. 6:19
        I believe Jesus made that very clear on that issue.

        There are foods, however, that we should avoid to some extent such as fatty foods, foods that are high in cholesterol, high carbohydrates food and sugar drinks especially if you are diabetic, drinks high in caffeine if you have hypertension, etc. Common sense in this area.

      • You wrote: “Again, the pathway for presenting the gospel was through the Jewish people and their synagogues. There is no record that the Apostles and their immediate successors taught laws unique to Judaism to Gentile converts.”

        You are forgetting that Paul used to teach both by precept and also by his example:

        New International Version (©1984)
        Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. [1 Cor. 11]

        Jesus kept the weekly Sabbath; Paul followed his example, and he told his readers to follow his own example.

        Nic Samojluk

      • You wrote: “You are forgetting that Paul used to teach both by precept and also by his example:”

        1 Cor. 9:19-23 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

        Paul recognize that he often had to place himself under the law to win those under the law to Christ. However, nowhere did he teach that one had to observe the OT Sabbath. To observe the OT sabbath, it was first necessary to become circumcised – the entry rite into the Jewish religion.

        Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

        Judaism + Jesus is not = Christianity.

      • You wrote:

        “To observe the OT Sabbath, it was first necessary to become circumcised – the entry rite into the Jewish religion.”

        Wrong! Circumcision was not a requirement for Sabbath observance. Read the following:

        “While the gospel was preached to Jews in Antioch, the majority of new converts came from the God fearers. These Gentiles had adopted the Jewish faith with their code of morality and attended synagogue services, but who were not full converts and did not want to submit to circumcision. These were probably the ones mentioned in the gospels, because they restricted themselves to certain leading points of the ceremonial law, they were regarded as outside the fellowship of Jewish communities.

        http://latter-rain.com/ltrain/godfear.htm

        Notice that these gentile God fearers did attend the Jewish synagogue which met on the Jewish Sabbath, but avoided the circumcision ritual.

        Nic Samojluk

      • You wrote:
        “To observe the OT Sabbath, it was first necessary to become circumcised – the entry rite into the Jewish religion.”
        Wrong! Circumcision was not a requirement for Sabbath observance.

        ***No, I disagree according to rabbinical sources, if a Gentile wanted to observe anything that was distinctly Jewish, he first had to be circumcised. This was very true if a Gentile wanted to observe the Passover.
        Ex 12:48 If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

        Read the following:
        “While the gospel was preached to Jews in Antioch, the majority of new converts came from the God fearers. These Gentiles had adopted the Jewish faith with their code of morality and attended synagogue services, but who were not full converts and did not want to submit to circumcision. These were probably the ones mentioned in the gospels, because they restricted themselves to certain leading points of the ceremonial law, they were regarded as outside the fellowship of Jewish communities.
        http://latter-rain.com/ltrain/godfear.htm
        Notice that these gentile God fearers did attend the Jewish synagogue which met on the Jewish Sabbath, but avoided the circumcision ritual.
        *****
        Probably true however, these “God fearers” went as far as worship the same God as the Jews, however, it is questionable if they went as far as observing any of the Jewish feasts, Sabbath or other holy days. But what can we conclude of them after they became Christians? As you know, circumcision was something that Gentile believers had problems with. If they followed the Pauline teachings, chances are they did not convert to Judaism.

      • Lee,

        You are confusing the weekly Sabbath with the yearly Sabbath!

        Nic Samojluk

      • //You are confusing the weekly Sabbath with the yearly Sabbath!

        Not in the least am I confused as to anything that is distinctly Jewish in nature. To observe anything that is uniquely Jewish in nature, requires the person to become circumcised. Ask any Jewish rabbi that quesiton and he will tell you much the same thing as I stated.

        Also a good knowledge of church history would reveal the fact that the early Gentile church did not support anything Jewish ordinance or festival. We can see that much in the various writings of the early church leaders; many of whom were direct successors of the Aposltes themselves.

      • Lee,

        The weekly Sabbath was blessed by the Lord centuries before the advent of the Jewish nation, and Jesus stated that the Sabbath was made for man–meaning Adam and Eve.

        Nic Samojluk

      • you wrote: The weekly Sabbath was blessed by the Lord centuries before the advent of the Jewish nation, and Jesus stated that the Sabbath was made for man–meaning Adam and Eve.

        If that were really true then most certainly we would see something of it in the patriarches but we do not. In fact, the first reference ot the Sabbath is Exodus 16.

        Again, the Sabbath was given as a SIGN of the covenant God made only with Israel at Mt. Sinai. Exodus 31:13,17

        What also makes your assertion impossible is that the 7 day week was not in vogue until the time of the Babylonians and the Jewish nation. Egypt has a 11 day week.

        Consider what sripture has to say regarind this issue.

        Exodus. 1 NIV The LORD said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt,”This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year.

        So the Jewish 7 day week really started with the Lord commanding Moses.

      • Lee,

        I am not impressed with your peculiar theory! The Lord blessed the Sabbath thousands of years before the birth of the Jewish nation, and Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man. Can this be clearer than this?

        The Sabbath was made for Adam and Eve, and they were not Jews. If Adam was a Jew, then we are all Jews! This is so patently clear that a little child could see this!

      • Is my belief (which is the dominant belief of most Christian denominations) that the church is under the New covenant and not the Old really a “peculiar theory’? You ignore the fact that the New Covenant was a covenant that was “not like” the one He made with Israel when they left Egypt.

        Hebrews 8:8-9“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

        “not like” simply means “different” and in content; not merely in location like Adventism desperately wants to believe in order to justify obedience to selected OT laws. Perhaps a judaizing persuasion to get the Christian away from grace and back under the law.

        Nor is the belief that what is not in the New Covenant is not binding on the Christian walk a peculiar theory.

        A covenant is liken to a last will and testament in that a new one makes any previous one obsolete and thus invalid. However some of the tenets of the former ones may be found within the newer one.

        Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

        The covenants that are in view here are the covenant made at Mt. Sinai with the one Christ ushered in at the Cross.

        In supporting the New Covenant believing that it is simply the Old Covenant but in a different location, then are you not a son of Hagar?

        Galatians Ga 4:24-25 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.

        Let us be free in Christ!

        Was the Sabbath given to Adam and Eve. No one in Judaism will hold that view since the Sabbath was given as a SIGN of the covenant God made only with Israel. Exodus 31:13,17

      • Lee,

        The Old Covenant was based on the promise made by the people to keep God’s Law. The New Covenant is solidly based on God’s promise to write his Law in our hearts.

        Yes, “let us be free.” Free to do what? Free to transgress God’s Law? or free from sin? The function of the Law is to make us conscious of the presence of sin in our lives. The moment you do away with God’s Law, you become blind to the presence of sin.

      • you wrote: The Old Covenant was based on the promise made by the people to keep God’s Law. The New Covenant is solidly based on God’s promise to write his Law in our hearts.
        Yes, “let us be free.” Free to do what? Free to transgress God’s Law? or free from sin? The function of the Law is to make us conscious of the presence of sin in our lives. The moment you do away with God’s Law, you become blind to the presence of sin.
        —-
        I disagree, however, if what you say is true, then who or what has the authority to say which of God’s laws were written onto believers hearts? The pope at Rome? Ellen White, Joseph Smith, etc. There are around 613 laws in the Old Testament alone.

        Free from what? The indwelling Holy Spirit enables us to live a live that is free from sin, among other things. Those that attempt to live in accordance to the Old Covenant law are those living under that ministry of death & condemnation craved in letters on stone and not not not under the ministry of God’s Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:7f

        As for being able to do away with God’s law, Adventists apparently believe that they must sanctify themselves. But Scripture attests to the fact that it is the Holy Spirit that works within the life of the believer to transform one into image of Jesus.

        Am I free from sin? Not totally but I can look back and see that God has worked in my life to create in me, a desire and will to please HIm in all areas of my life. (See Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.)

        1 Thessalonians 4:3-7 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. FOR GOD HAS NOT CALLED US FOR IMPURITY BUT IN HOLINESS.

      • Lee . . . consider the following from five protestant leaders:

        METHODIST: Charles Buck, A Theological Dictionary, “Sabbath”:
        “Sabbath in the Hebrew language signifies rest, and is the seventh day of the week… and it must be confessed that there is no law in the New Testament concerning the first day.”

        Clovis Chappell, Ten Rules for Living, pg. 61:
        “The reason we obvserve the first day instead of the seventh is based on no positive command. One will search the Scriptures in vain for authority for changing from the seventh day to the first.”

        PRESBYTERIAN: “The Christian at Work”, April 19, 1883 and January 1884:
        “Some have tried to build the observance of Sunday upon Apostolic command, wheras the Apostles gave no command on the matter at all…The truth is, so soon as we appeal to the litera scripta (literal writing) of the Bible, the Sabbatarians have the best of the argument,”

        ANGLICAN: Isaac William, D.D. Plain Sermons on the Catechism. Vol. 1:
        “Where are we told in Scripture that we are to keep the first day at all? We are commanded to keep the seventh; but we are nowhere commanded to keep the first day … The reason why we keep the first day of the week holy instead of the seventh is for the same reason that we observe many other things, NOT BECAUSE THE BIBLE, BUT BECAUSE THE CHURCH, HAS ENJOINED IT.”

        EPISCOPAL: Philip Carrington, Toronto Daily Star, October 26, 1949:
        “The Bible commandments says on the seventh day thou shalt rest. That is Saturday. Nowhere in the Bible is it laid down that worhsip should be done on Sunday.”

        BAPTIST: Harold Lindsell (editor), Christianity today, November 5, 1976:
        “There is nothing in Scripture that requires us to keep Sunday rather than Saturday as a holdy day.”

        Note: The above information does not come from an Adventist publication rather from The Living Church of God. PO box 3810 Charlotte, NC 28277-8010 Phone: (704) 844-1970 http://www.TOMORROWSWORLD,ORG

        Roger Slonaker

      • Rpger – In the first place, some ofyour denominational quotes are from those who truly believed the Sabbath was transferred to Sunday. The jewish Sabbath has always been Saturday, never Sunday.

        Secondly it is true that the Bible does not require us to keep Sunday or any day of the week. What Christians do together is to gather together for worship and mutual edification and that is mostly on the Lord’s day – a practice believed by many to be in accordance with tradition established by the Apostles and their immediate successors. I say that since church history tells us that nearly all Gentile churches by the beginning of the second century no longer observed the Sabbath. Bacchiocchi makes the claim that is was because even Gentile believers simply did not like Jews and wished to avoid identification with them.

        I have in the past, received material from the Living Church of God. While it is also a Sabbaterian church, they also believe in following all the Old Covenant laws including the various feasts days.

      • You are forgetting that Paul used to teach both by precept and also by his example:

        New International Version (©1984)
        Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. [1 Cor. 11]
        Jesus kept the weekly Sabbath; Paul followed his example, and he told his readers to follow his own example.
        ***It is very very very doubtful that Paul taught anything that was strictly Jewish in nature such as the Sabbath observance or the Levitical dietary laws.

        Acts 21:21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.

        If Paul had taught Jewish laws, and told others to follow his example, then why did they not obey him? The history of the church tells us that there was a departure from the Mosaic laws.

        Even others in th early church were accused (and probably rightly so) for not supporting Mosaic laws.

        We read in Acts 6:11 Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.

        And in Acts 6:14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.

        So you contention really lacks substance.

      • Lee, you wrote:

        “It is very very very doubtful that Paul taught anything that was strictly Jewish in nature such as the Sabbath observance”

        We do have N.T. references to Paul worshipping on the Sabbath like Jesus.

        You also wrote:

        “If Paul had taught Jewish laws, and told others to follow his example, then why did they not obey him? The history of the church tells us that there was a departure from the Mosaic laws.”

        Paul did predict a falling away from the true faith after his departure.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee,

        Here is what an evangelical web site admits regarding the seventy-day Sabbath:

        “The earliest Christians were Torah-observant Jews in Jerusalem, who attended Jewish festivals and observed Temple rituals (Acts 2:1; 3:1; 15:5; 21:20). They apparently observed the seventh-day Sabbath, too. …

        Nevertheless, there is good reason to believe that some Jewish Christians, especially in Judea, continued to observe the Sabbath. …

        Ebionites and Nazarenes, groups who claimed descent from the Jerusalem church, were keeping the Sabbath in the fourth century,[5] and their observance of Jewish laws goes back at least to the second century[6] and probably back to apostolic times. …
        The earliest Jewish Christians kept the Sabbath. …”

        http://www.gci.org/law/sabbath/history1

        Nic Samojluk

      • “The earliest Christians were Torah-observant Jews in Jerusalem, who attended Jewish festivals and observed Temple rituals (Acts 2:1; 3:1; 15:5; 21:20). They apparently observed the seventh-day Sabbath, too. …
        I never had a problem in believing that the earliest Jewish Christians continued to observe the Torah laws as well as the Sabbath. But that was not the case with the Gentile church.

        It is easy to see that none none none of the early church writers that were leaders of Gentile churches neither taught observed the Sabbath or any laws that was distinctively Jewish in nature. There is no argument that the early Jewish Christians continued in the Jewish religion.

        “According to Luke, the church at first had not worked out the full implications of its Easter experience, and to a great extent, merely ran on in the well-worn grooves of Jewish piety’”. (p. 121, From Sabbath to Lord’s day, edited by DA Carson)

        And yes there has been minor groups throughout the history of the church that did observe the OT Sabbath but they were of a minority view. One reason for the Council of Laodocia was to suppress if possible the Judaizing of the Church.

        He (Eusebius, ca 324 AD) lived right there, knew just what Christians did, and wrote about fifty years before the Council of Laodicea where Adventists say the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. True, there was a small heretical sect who kept the Sabbath as Judaizers do now. Of them he says: They are “those who cherish low and mean opinions of Christ. . . . With them the observance of the law was altogether necessary [just like Seventh-Day Adventists] as if they could not be saved only by faith in Christ and a corresponding life. . . . They also observe the Sabbath and other discipline of the Jews just like them, but on the other hand they also celebrate the Lord’s Days very much like us in commemoration of His resurrection.” (Eusebius Ecclesiastical History)

        Even these Judaizers kept Sunday. On the Ninety-second Psalm he says: “The word by the new covenant translated and transferred the feast of the Sabbath to the morning light and gave us the true rest, viz., the saving Lord’s Day.” “On this day which is the first of light and of the true Sun, we assemble, after an interval of six days, and celebrate holy and spiritual Sabbaths, even all nations redeemed by him throughout the world, and do those things according to the spiritual law which were decreed for the priests to do on the Sabbath.” Again: “And all things whatsoever that it was the duty to do on the Sabbath, these we have transferred to the Lord’s Day as more honorable than the Jewish Sabbath.” (Eusebius Commentary on Psalms 92)

        One thing that I always look for when I am doing research on any subject is to view the references provided by the author. All too often those of contrary viewpoint try hard to discredit the author of a publication but rarely, very rarely ever check the references from which the author has drawn his conclusions. Recommend, if you can check the two references I provided.

        And all too often, the reader is a bias person desiring only to read what supports his viewpoint.

        To get some idea as to how the Sabbath was no longer observed, and how Sunday became the day Christians met, suggest the following reading by Samuel Bacchiocchi SDA church historian Andrews University.

        http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/sabbath_to_sunday/6.html

      • Lee, you wrote: “I never had a problem in believing that the earliest Jewish Christians continued to observe the Torah laws as well as the Sabbath. But that was not the case with the Gentile church.”

        How much biblical evidence do you have in support of this view of yours?

        You also said: “It is easy to see that none none none of the early church writers that were leaders of Gentile churches neither taught observed the Sabbath or any laws that was distinctively Jewish in nature.”

        Paul was the most outstanding leader of the Gentile Christian church. On what day does the Bible say that he met with Gentile God fearers?

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you wrote: “And yes there has been minor groups throughout the history of the church that did observe the OT Sabbath but they were of a minority view.”

        Correct. They were members of those described as the Remnant in the book of Revelation who kept all Ten of God’s Commandment!

        You said: “True, there was a small heretical sect who kept the Sabbath as Judaizers do now.”

        God’s faithful Remnant have always been accused of heresy. Jesus and his followers have been treated in like manner throughout history.

        You quoted Eusebius as follows: : “And all things whatsoever that it was the duty to do on the Sabbath, these we have transferred to the Lord’s Day as more honorable than the Jewish Sabbath.” (Eusebius Commentary on Psalms 92)“

        I am amazed that you quote Eusebius as an authority, who claims that the church did transfer the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath to Sunday, and then argue that Adventists are wrong in stating the same.

        You wrote: “To get some idea as to how the Sabbath was no longer observed, and how Sunday became the day Christians met, suggest the following reading by Samuel Bacchiocchi SDA church historian Andrews University.

        http://www.biblicalperspeectives.com/books/sabbath_to_sunday/6.html”

        Thanks for this link! Here is one of his statements:

        “The introduction of Sunday worship in place of “Jewish” Sabbath..keeping—the latter being particularly derided by several Roman writers of the time—could well represent a measure taken by the leaders of the Church of Rome to evidence their severance from Judaism and thereby also avoid the payment of a discriminatory tax.”

        Bacchiocchi’s reasoning seems quite kosher to me. I am at a loss at your rejection of what sounds so logic and plausible! And you do not trust in the Westminster Confession either! I see a big problem with your views!

        Nic Samojluk

      • I have read several of Canrights books and also the Adventist replies and it is my conclusion that they spend far too much time and effort (and $$$$) trying to discredit him however, they do not answer any of the contents of his books.
        Much of what he wrote about Adventism can be compiled and verified from other sources. And that is the problem.

        It is good that you realize that having communal worship on Sunday and not followinig ellen white has far more justification than Adventism can offer.

        God bless and may He lead you into more of an understanding of these things particular the things we have in the Bible.

      • Lee, you said: “I have read several of Canrights books and also the Adventist replies and it is my conclusion that they spend far too much time and effort (and $$$$) trying to discredit him however”

        Defending the Sabbath is worth the effort!

        You also said: “It is good that you realize that having communal worship on Sunday and not following Ellen white has far more justification than Adventism can offer.”

        I do follow Ellen White, but she did state that the Bible is supreme and that only God is infallible.
        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you said: “I have read several of Canright’s books and also the Adventist replies and it is my conclusion that they spend far too much time and effort (and $$$$) trying to discredit him however” Defending the Sabbath is worth the effort! You also said: “It is good that you realize that having communal worship on Sunday and not following Ellen white has far more justification than Adventism can offer.” I do follow Ellen White, but she did state that the Bible is supreme and that only God is infallible. Nic Samojluk

        What you are defending is really a law found only only only in the Old Covenant as it is not not not part of the New Covenant.

        Again, you cannot depute rationally the fact that if the observance of the Sabbath was of any importance, then we would must certain see it in the Epistles as well as taught in the early church. Howbeit, none none none of the leaders of the Gentile churches taught Sabbath keeping.

        In the Sabbath commandment, all you really have is a law from a covenant declared OBSOLETE.

        Hebrews 8:13 NIV By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and ageing will soon disappear.

        And what exactly is the Old Covenant that this verse refers to? If you answered, the Sinai covenant, you got the right answer. And what is the ten commandments if not the covenant made at Mt. Sinai?

        As someone that has been trained as a systems analyst – 24 years professional, 8 years college level education, I try to be as unbiased as possible. In that I read everything including Ellen White and Canright. However, in that I also realize that I need the enlightenment of God’s Spirit as spiritual things cannot be interpreted by the natural man. Often a young child brings to view something that is simply while we think more in terms of the complex.

        A final thought! While Ellen believed that the Bible is supreme – a view held by many Christians, what you are really stuck with is Ellen as an infallible interpreter much on the same level as the Roman Catholic pope.

      • Lee, you wrote: What you are defending is really a law found only only only in the Old Covenant as it is not not not part of the New Covenant.”

        We are going over the same ground over and over again. How about presenting new evidence?

        The difference between the Old Covenant and the new one is not the content, but rather the location. God promised that with the new covenant his laws would be inscribed on human hearts. Is this so difficult to understand?

        You wrote: “As someone that has been trained as a systems analyst – 24 years professional, 8 years college level education, I try to be as unbiased as possible.”

        I do try to be unbiased as well. Now regarding the number of college years, I have more: 16. Yes, you got it right. I have 16 years of college and higher years of study and research.

        This means twice as many as you have. Nevertheless, I would never have brought this up were it not for the fact that you did bring it up.

        You stated: “However, in that I also realize that I need the enlightenment of God’s Spirit as spiritual things cannot be interpreted by the natural man. Often a young child brings to view something that is simply while we think more in terms of the complex.”

        When aided with the Holy Spirit, a child may be closer to truth than the most educated scholar.

        You said: “A final thought! While Ellen believed that the Bible is supreme – a view held by many Christians, what you are really stuck with is Ellen as an infallible interpreter much on the same level as the Roman Catholic pope.”

        If you knew me better, you would never make such an outrageous claim!

        Nic Samojluk

  45. Lee, you said: “In your reference in Acts 16, it is true that the Apostles sought to first present the gospel to the Jewish people. In that it makes sense that they would first go into the Jewish synagogues or seek out other places where Jews congregated as was the case with Lydia who met [...]
    Lee, you wrote: “Matthew Pooles commentary identifies her as a proselyte to the Jewish religion.”
    But the Bible identifies her as a “ worshiper of God.” The Bible is consistent on this. Worshipers of God did worship with the Jews in their synagogues, but they were not proselytes. Worshipers of God, or God fearers, were not circumcised, which was a fundamental ritual for becoming full members of the Jewish faith.
    A classic example is that of Cornelius who was a God fearer and a worshiper of God, but he was not a proselyte.
    Nic Samojluk

    It is possible that there were those that were ‘worshippers of God’ but had not joined themselves to Judaism but they may have been few and far between.

    Gill’s commentary =
    which worshipped God; the true God, the God of Israel, and not the gods of the Gentiles, among whom she was; which shows, that she was either a Jewish woman, who had knowledge of the one true and living God, or at least a proselytess of the Jewish religion:

    • Lee, you wrote: “The problem here is that Adventism claims these verses in Revelation pertain to the ten commandments but none of these texts really states ten commandments.”

      How many commandments did God write with his own hand on tablets of stone? You have chosen to honor only Nine of them, We try to honor all Ten.

      You alluded to Kerry Wynne’s criticism of Dr. Bacchiocchi’s work dealing with the Sabbath. I have very little respect for Wynne’s opinions. He claims that Adventism is threatened by an anti-Sabbatharian movement. This is the first time I have heard such a wild claim.

      “The inadequacies of Dr. Bacchiocchi’s first book, From Sabbath to Sunday, almost certainly launched, or at least greatly hastened, the rise of the new anti-Sabbatarian movement that is currently threatening the Seventh-day Adventist Church in North America.”

      http://www.scribd.com/doc/47752412/Dr-Bacchiocchi-the-Sabbath-and-the-Writings-of-Paul-Kerry-Wynne

      You made a reference to the passage found in Colossians 2:14. Read the following comment I found about said text:

      “Some try to nail the “ordinances” to the cross because Passover is an ordinance (Exodus 12:12-14). This argument fails when you realize that the verb is singular not plural.

      If you presented a school paper that said “The ordinances
      was nailed to the cross,” you would have been penalized for bad grammar, yet this is precisely what many are doing. They are forcing their theology onto the text.

      Please note also that “of ordinances” is a prepositional phrase and cannot be the subject of the verb. The “handwriting” was nailed to the cross and it was the “handwriting” that was against us. This is the handwritten record of our sin (made by our recording angel) that is “nailed” when we repent.

      Here’s another problem: notice the pronoun, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross. If “ordinances” were in reference here, Paul would have said “and took them out of the say, nailing them to his cross.”

      Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you wrote: “The problem here is that Adventism claims these verses in Revelation pertain to the ten commandments but none of these texts really states ten commandments.”
        How many commandments did God write with his own hand on tablets of stone? You have chosen to honor only Nine of them, We try to honor all Ten.

        ***Yes, including the one that is not even mentioned in the New Covenant! But for what practical purpose apart from observing any other day of the week for rest from regular labor?

        You alluded to Kerry Wynne’s criticism of Dr. Bacchiocchi work dealing with the Sabbath. I have very little respect for his opinions. He claims that Adventism is threatened by an anti-Sabbatharian movement. This is the first time I have heard such a wild claim.
        “The inadequacies of Dr. Bacchiocchi’s first book, From Sabbath to Sunday, almost certainly launched, or at least greatly hastened, the rise of the new anti-Sabbatarian movement that is currently threatening the Seventh-day Adventist Church in North America.”
        http://www.scribd.com/doc/47752412/Dr-Bacchiocchi-the-Sabbath-and-the-Writings-of-Paul-Kerry-Wynne

        ***do you not find it interesting that most if not all, the critiques of Adventism is from those who have been long term Adventism; even pastors, theologians and other Biblical scholars? And Kerry Wynne is a 3rd generation Adventist and even graduated from Adventist colleges. Obviously there is/are problems!

        You made a reference to the passage found in Colossians 2:14. Read the following comment I found about said text:

        “Some try to nail the “ordinances” to the cross because Passover is an ordinance (Exodus 12:12-14). This argument fails when you realize that the verb is singular not plural.
        If you presented a school paper that said “The ordinances
        was nailed to the cross,” you would have been penalized for bad grammar, yet this is precisely what many are doing. They are forcing their theology onto the text.
        Please note also that “of ordinances” is a prepositional phrase and cannot be the subject of the verb. The “handwriting” was nailed to the cross and it was the “handwriting” that was against us. This is the handwritten record of our sin (made by our recording angel) that is “nailed” when we repent.
        Here’s another problem: notice the pronoun, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross. If “ordinances” were in reference here, Paul would have said “and took them out of the say, nailing them to his cross.”
        Nic Samojluk

        ***I believe the NIV or the ESV is more accurate in translating 2:14 than is the KJV which uses “ordinances”. And I believe the previous verses puts verse 14 more into its context.

        Colossians 2:13-14 NIV When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having cancelled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

        Colossians 2:13-14 ESV And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

      • You wrote:

        “do you not find it interesting that most if not all, the critiques of Adventism is from those who have been long term Adventism; even pastors, theologians and other Biblical scholars?”

        How many can you count? Compare said number with the 17 million members of the Adventist Church. There was a time in Jesus’ ministry when the crowds who were following him because of the bread fish he fed to them abandoned him. Would you judge Jesus on the basis of those who stopped following him?

        Nic Samojluk

      • you not find it interesting that most if not all, the critiques of Adventism is from those who have been long term Adventism; even pastors, theologians and other Biblical scholars?”
        How many can you count? Compare said number with the 17 million members of the Adventist Church. There was a time in Jesus’ ministry when the crowds who were following him because of the bread fish he fed to them abandoned him. Would you judge Jesus on the basis of those who stopped following him?

        ***There are really a significant number of leading Adventists from Dudley M. Canright, Dale Ratzlaff, Sydney Cleveland, Jerry Gladson PhD, Russel E. Kelly PhD, Edith Fairman Cooper, Kerry Wynne (Andrews University), Kristin Jackson, Walter Rea PhD, Steve Kurtright, Mark Martin, and if you view the Internet testimonies, there are probably hundreds more that have left Adventism.

        While the Adventist church has made the claim that they are one of the fastest growing denominations this is not the case in the United States. The Adventist church admits that from the period of 2000 to 2005, nearly 1.5 million left membership. Bert Haloviak, director of Archives and Statistics for the Adventist church, states that for every 100 accessions, more than 35 others decided to leave.

        I do not have the statistics for the periods from 2005 to 2010.

        Some of the SDA critics make the claim that most converts to Adventism will leave that denomination after 5 years or simply become totally inactive. It is all too easy to see that Adventism is one denomination that is in trouble. But so are those that have dropped the Bible as their inerrant guide.

        What I wonder about is whether it is the teachings of Ellen White that driven many away from Adventism or is there other reasons? Some of her views are kooky according to today’s cultural standards.

        The reason that many stopped following Jesus is that they really did not understand His view about one must eat Him to have eternal life. He did, however, weed out those that were following Him for other reasons.

      • Lee,

        What does your argument prove? Does not this bring to mind the experience of Jesus following the feeding of the five thousand? Was this an evidence that the message of Jesus was false?

        Nic Samojluk

      • Why do so many critics of Adventism come out of Adventism itself. I think that when the recruit has been introduced to the view that olde Ellen White was the voice of God that many in comparison to what the plain meaning of scirpture find there are problems.

        One such problem is that Ellen believed eating meat was sinful but in doing that, one has to conclude that Jesus Himself who ate meat was in sin.
        Far too much of what Ellen believed is totally unacceptable and totally ridiculous.

        One needs to realize that Ellen was not not not a trained theologian and that most of her works were plagarized from other authors.\

      • Lee,

        I have to disagree! Most of her writing are very useful for our daily Christian living. If something she said is contrary to the Bible, I simply ignore it.

        Nic Samojluk

      • You wrote: Lee,

        I have to disagree! Most of her (EGW) writing are very useful for our daily Christian living. If something she said is contrary to the Bible, I simply ignore it.

        yes, I have some agreement with you on this, however, there has been far too many studies that have indicated that what Ellen wrote was really the works of other authors. It is her doctrinal beliefs inserted into her writings that Bible scholars have problems with.

      • Lee, Ellen White wasn’t looking for notoriety, she was trying to ampllfy the Scriptures for Christ’s folowers. . . PERIOD!

      • Nic . . . You display the patience of a ‘true-saint’ . . . I don’t understand why the attack on Ellen White and the Seventh-Day-Adventist Church ? Perhaps reading some of the comments from the Catholic wiritings would change this thought pattern ! ?? I have read the Great Controversey and have been studying it for the past few months. Ellen White absolutely quotes other authors and writings to make her point . . . God surely had given her His thoughts to write for our time to further amplify the Bible . . . Not to contradict it and she doesn’t . . . She states ‘If there is a question in my writings that does not agree with the Bible, then take what the Bible says.’ How much clearer can it get ? In my 74 years I have never experienced such convoluted and failing explanations in an attempt to discredit the truth for the sake of being right!

        Roger Slonaker

      • //Nic . . . You display the patience of a ‘true-saint’ . . . I don’t understand why the attack on Ellen White and the Seventh-Day-Adventist Church ?“

        In the preface to the Great Controversy we have the followiing statement:

        “We believe that she has been empowered by a Divine illumination to speak of some past events which have been brought to her knowledge with greater minuteness than is set forth in any existing records,* and to read the future with more than human foresight.”

        I do not believe that Ellen White on this premise. There are and has been a myriad of people even during her time that had visions, and other religious experiences and truly believe what they show and spoke was the very words of God.

      • The use of the word ‘I’ has become frequent in your comments, Lee . . . and is somewhat confounding!

      • //Lee . . . Does not most of what you state come from other writers ? Ellen White validated what she was writing by quoting other human-writers but God directed her as he did all the writers of the Old & New Testaments.
        Roger

        Yes, I have my mentors as did Ellen White, but I do attempt to give credit where credit is due.

        The charge of plagiarism is not new even in among official SDA investigators.

        From Arthur G. Daniells ,President of the General Conference 1919 (minutes of which were sealed until 1974)

        “Now you know something about that little book (Sketches From the Life of Paul, (originally published in 1883). You know the difficulty we got into about that. We could never claim inspiration in the whole thought and make up the book, because it has been thrown aside because it was badly put tougher. Credits were not given to the proper authorities, and some of that crept into the Great Controversy ….I suppose you all know about it and knew what claims were put up against her, charges made of plagiarism, even by the authors of the book, Conybeare and Howson, and were liable to make the denomination trouble because there was so much of their book put into Sketches From the Life of Paul without any credit or quotation marks…I found it out and I read it with Brother Palmer when he found it and we got Conybeare and Howson and we got Wylie’ History of the Reformation and we read word for word, page after page, and no quotations, no credit and really I do not know the difference until I began to compare them. I supposed it was Sister White’s own work!…There I saw the manifestation of the human in these writings. Of course I could have said this, and I did say it, that I wished a different course had been taken in the compilation of the books. If proper care had been exercised, it would have saved a lot of people from being thrown off the track…(Sydney Cleveland, White Washed, p.12)

      • Lee,

        Does the fact that she copied from other authors mean that the material is bad? Should we judge her writings on the basis of the spiritual value or reject them merely because she failed to acknowledge her sources?

        How much formal education did she have? Isn’t it amazing what she accomplished in spite of her lack of training? Do you think that you would have done better given similar circumstances? Who was in charge of publishing her books? Can we place all the blame on her given the fact that others were actually editing and publishing what she was writing?

        When I was working on my masters degree, I submitted my project, which was required for my graduation. My work was rejected because I had failed to properly crediting some of my sources. I was given one day to make the proper corrections, and I had to hire a typist who stayed up all night typing my work. Was my unedited work worthless simply because I had failed to properly credit some of my sources?

        Ellen White books resulted in many souls saved for God’s kingdom. The Lord did bless her work in spite of the imperfections contained therein. Why can’t you acknowledge this and live in peace with her? If the Lord did bless her work, why are you so determined to do the opposite? Who is inspiring you to destroy her influence?

      • Lee . . . Does not most of what you state come from other writers ? Ellen White validated what she was writing by quoting other human-writers but God directed her as he did all the writers of the Old & NewTestaments.

        Roger Slonaker

  46. Lee, you wrote: What you are defending is really a law found only only only in the Old Covenant as it is not not not part of the New Covenant.”

    We are going over the same ground over and over again. How about presenting new evidence?

    The difference between the Old Covenant and the new one is not the content, but rather the location. God promised that with the new covenant his laws would be inscribed on human hearts. Is this so difficult to understand?

    **Hebrews 8:8-10NIV For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
    on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
    after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    The key words here are “not like the covenant” which in my understanding that it is a covenant that is different in CONTENT from that old covenant God made with His people when they came out of Egypt.

    If you hold the view that only only only the location changed, then you have the problem of sorting out all the 600+ law found in the Old Testament that were also applicable in the New Testament.

    And more convincing is the fact that those who would adhere to the Old Covenant are children of Hagar, not children of the Promise given to Abraham.

    Galatians 4:24-25 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother…. Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.

    The verses really tell us that those who adhere to the Old Covenant are those in slavery and are not the children of the promise.

    The kind of reasoning that holds the view that only the location has changed, is a trick used by the legalists to bring the believe back under the Old Covenant laws.

    You wrote: “As someone that has been trained as a systems analyst – 24 years professional, 8 years college level education, I try to be as unbiased as possible.”
    I do try to be unbiased as well. Now regarding the number of college years, I have more: 16. Yes, you got it right. I have 16 years of college and higher years of study and research.
    This means twice as many as you have. Nevertheless, I would never have brought this up were it not for the fact that you did bring it up.

    ***I probably have the advantage in that I was not brought up as a Seventh Day Adventist only as one to believe in God’s existence. It was not until my Junior year of college that Jesus came into my life. I had always held the view that God existed but knew nothing about the spiritual side; namely being born of God’s Spirit. For me it was quite a dynamic change in my outlook on things. My background education is in mathematics and physics. We were trained to look objectively at all the evidence unlike those that were educated in some religious philosophy.

    You stated: “However, in that I also realize that I need the enlightenment of God’s Spirit as spiritual things cannot be interpreted by the natural man. Often a young child brings to view something that is simply while we think more in terms of the complex.”
    When aided with the Holy Spirit, a child may be closer to truth than the most educated scholar.
    ***It depends really upon the degree of complexity of subject under study. The plain things are more readily accepted by a child.

    You said: “A final thought! While Ellen believed that the Bible is supreme – a view held by many Christians, what you are really stuck with is Ellen as an infallible interpreter much on the same level as the Roman Catholic pope.”
    If you knew me better, you would never make such an outrageous claim!

    ***You need to face that face as to how most devout Adventists view olde Ellen White. I came to the conclusion that she often talked out of both sides of her mouth depending upon the situation at hand.

    • Lee, you wrote: “Andrews, in my view as well as in others, is not a credible historian.”

      I don’t know about Andrews, but I have read Bacchiocchi and Desmond Ford on the Sabbath topic. Both of them do document their sources quite well.

      You said: “The religionist is really a blind person believing that he merits flavor with God by obedience to the law, especially the 10 commandment laws.”

      You are misrepresenting the teachings of true Adventists. I could say the same about evangelicals like you. You did acknowledge that Nine of the Ten are still valid. Does this mean that when you abstain from murder, adultery and lying you are earning merits for salvation?

      There is no way for us to merit anything. Salvation is a gift, and when you receive a gift, you do not ask: “How much do I owe you!” You simply say, “Thank you.” We Adventists do not keep the Sabbath to be saved, but rather do it because Jesus has saved us already.

      You wrote: “Adventists in claiming they are the remnant church do indeed claim they alone possess the truth.”

      The Remnant is not composed of Adventists, but rather by all those who are living according to the light which has been revealed to them. The Remnant is described in the book of Revelation as those who keep God’s Commandments. If you disagree with this principle, you need to argue with John, the author of the last book of the Bible.

      You wrote: “She really spend the majority of her money on her lavish lifestyle.”

      This accusation is definitely false and is evidence of how little you know about the life and actions of Ellen White. In the early days of her ministry, she spent five years of her life traveling throughout the States encouraging the dispersed Adventist believers.

      She did this while strangers were taking care of her own family, including a young baby. Tell me how many devoted Christian women you know who would be willing to sacrifice that much for the Gospel! You have been listening too long to her critics. It is high time for you to get acquainted with the real Ellen White!

      Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you wrote: “Andrews, in my view as well as in others, is not a credible historian.”
        I don’t know about Andrews, but I have read Bacchiocchi and Desmond Ford on the Sabbath topic. Both of them do document their sources quite well.
        ***I was reading Desmond Ford’s “In the heart of Daniel” concerning his dissertation on Daniel 9:24-27 but he lost me when I read that he believed all the promises given to Israel were transferred to the church. In that one can go off into just about any tangent desired.
        What bothered me about Bacchiocchi is that he believes the Mosaic law is still applicable to the Christian life. I simply cannot agree that Judaism was to be imposed onto the Gentile believer.

        You said: “The religionist is really a blind person believing that he merits flavor with God by obedience to the law, especially the 10 commandment laws.” You are misrepresenting the teachings of true Adventists. I could say the same about evangelicals like you.
        ***The fundamentalists in many different denominations can be a legalist believing that they can gain favor with God by what they are able to do while in the flesh. It is that new nature the Christian received in the new birth that gives rise to our Christian walk. The Christians lives by the Spirit; not the law.

        You did acknowledge that Nine of the Ten are still valid. Does this mean that when you abstain from murder, adultery and lying you are earning merits for salvation?
        ***The summation of the Decalogue according to Romans 13:9-10 is love of neighbor. In that the essence of all the commandments are fulfilled. But I would wonder what the Sabbath commandment has to do with love of neighbor rather than to share in the joy of having communal worship with others.

        There is no way for us to merit anything. Salvation is a gift, and when you receive a gift, you do not ask: “How much do I owe you!”
        You simply say, “Thank you.” We Adventists do not keep the Sabbath to be saved, but rather do it because Jesus has saved us already.
        ***Agree that our works have nothing to do with our salvation. I do believe, however, that the love God has for us brings with it discipline from Him if we chose to disobey that new nature we receive in regeneration. And I hold the view that God predestined us for salvation prior to the foundation of the earth.

        The Remnant is not composed of Adventist, but rather by all those who are living according to the light which has been revealed to them. The Remnant is described in the book of Revelation as those who keep God’s Commandments. If you disagree with this principle, you need to argue with John, the author of the last book of the Bible.
        ***According to Bible scholars, the commandments mentioned in John do not refer to the Decalogue.

        You wrote: “She really spend the majority of her money on her lavish lifestyle.”
        This accusation is definitely false and is evidence of how little you know about the life and actions of Ellen White. In the early days of her ministry, she spent five years of her life traveling throughout the States encouraging the dispersed Adventist believers.
        She did this while strangers were taking care of her own family, including a young baby. Tell me how many devoted Christian women you know who would be willing to sacrifice that much for the Gospel! You have been listening too long to her critics. It is high time for you to get acquainted with the real Ellen White!
        Nic Samojluk

        ***I think the historical evidences as provided by those who knew her well is totally indicative of the fact that her and James lived a rather livid lifestyle at least after they started peddling her books. One thing that I read on CARM.ORG is the view that she damned photography as being idolatry preferring instead that people spend money on her books instead. And what happened to her dress codes she sold patterns on? You really do not need Ellen White!

      • Lee, you wrote:

        “What bothered me about Bacchiocchi is that he believes the Mosaic law is still applicable to the Christian life. I simply cannot agree that Judaism was to be imposed onto the Gentile believer.”

        Are you sure he said this? You mean the entire Jewish law including circumcision? Can you provide a quote and a link so I can verify the context?

        You said:

        “The summation of the Decalogue according to Romans 13:9-10 is love of neighbor.”

        Are you concluding from the above text that we have no duty to love God? Can we take God’s name in vane? Are we free to worship idols? Can we have other gods beside the Lord? When Jesus summarized our religious duty he included our love towards God as our supreme duty and our love towards our neighbor came in second place. The first four Commandments of the Decalogue specify our duty to God and the last six our duty to others.

        You added the following:

        “But I would wonder what the Sabbath commandment has to do with love of neighbor”

        The Sabbath represents our duty to God. If we love our Creator, we will honor the day he created and blessed. It is a memorial of his creation.

        You wrote:

        “You really do not need Ellen White!”

        Her books have been a source of blessing for millions. I and my family are a living testimony of this.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you wrote:
        “What bothered me about Bacchiocchi is that he believes the Mosaic law is still applicable to the Christian life. I simply cannot agree that Judaism was to be imposed onto the Gentile believer.”
        Are you sure he said this? You mean the entire Jewish law including circumcision? Can
        you provide a quote and a link so I can verify the context?

        ***The article by Kerry Wynne brought that out. You need to read it as he quotes Bacchiocchi on this issue. It is my understanding that the Adventist church has established what they call a synagogue at Andrews University with the intent of observing Jewish festivals. The reference here is Proclamation Magazine (I can find the particular issue if you need to read it).

        You said:
        “The summation of the Decalogue according to Romans 13:9-10 is love of neighbor.”

        Are you concluding from the above text that we have no duty to love God? Can we take God’s name in vane? Are we free to worship idols? Can we have other gods beside the Lord? When Jesus summarized our religious duty he included our love towards God as our supreme duty and our love towards our neighbor came in second place. The first four Commandments of the Decalogue specify our duty to God and the last six our duty to others
        ***
        We love God by our daily walk with Him in all areas of our lives. And we show love towards God by our worship and praise to Him as well. But to observe some law not found in the New Covenant to me is not the way we show love towards God. As such the law was but a foreshadow of what was to come in Christ, the Sabbath being our rest in Him. Hebrews 4:2-3 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

        You added the following:
        “But I would wonder what the Sabbath commandment has to do with love of neighbor”
        The Sabbath represents our duty to God. If we love our Creator, we will honor the day he created and blessed. It is a memorial of his creation.
        *** Our duty to God is to live in Him by faith otherwise if we seek to honor Him by obedience to law, we place ourselves outside of His grace and bring upon ourselves a curse.
        Ga 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED BE EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW AND DO THEM.”

        You wrote:
        “You really do not need Ellen White!”
        Her books have been a source of blessing for millions. I and my family are a living testimony of this.
        ***And to some small degree I can say that also as my mother used to read Patriarchs and Prophets to me and I was so very fascinated by the stories. However, we need to bear in mind that Ellen often copied laboriously from other Christian authors inserting her own views as convenient to her own beliefs.

      • Lee,

        Here is my view: We all borrow ideas from others. If a statement is true, the fact that was borrowed or even stolen does not make the statement false. A borrowed or stolen piece of gold is still made of precious metal.

        Nic Samojluk

      • //Here is my view: We all borrow ideas from others. If a statement is true, the fact that was borrowed or even stolen does not make the statement false. A borrowed or stolen piece of gold is still made of precious metal.

        And we can also agree can we not, that if a statement is false, whether it is borrowed or even stolen, is irreleant.

        While a borrowed or stolen piece of gold is still gold, it is not alway true of non-material things.

      • Lee,

        I just answered this objection. Read my previous posting!

        Nic Samojluk

      • you wrote: Lee,I have to disagree! Most of her writing are very useful for our daily Christian living. If something she said is contrary to the Bible, I simply ignore it.

        The problem as I see it, is that if you are going to publish anything for the purpose of making money, you really need to reference your sources. However, what Ellen wrote she often credited it to her ‘accompanying angel’ and that is one thing that is a RED FLAG for most Christians.

        We need to realize that Muhammad got the Koran from the angel Gabriel and Joseph Smith also was given the Book of Mormons in the golden plates

        .Angelic visitation, visions, being slain in the Spirit as well as other religious type phenomena are common in times of religious radicalism. And that characterized the movement from which Adventism was birthed.

        We really need to prayerfully keep focus on the Word of God; not the writings of those who claim divine inspiration as did Ellen.

      • Lee,

        The historical facts connected with her visions is undeniable. This does not mean that everything she wrote was originated through visions.

        She herself stated that she learned from her spiritual experience and her study of the Bible. She did learn from her visions, and she did learn from other sources. Let’s not confuse those two.

      • Agree that most Mormons are very charitable people but like Adventists, I find their theology very questionable. You really have to believe in Joseph Smith and his visions to accept the Book of Mormons much on the same level as believing that Ellen White was a divine messenger of God to be an Adventist.

        Remember that Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, had an angelic visitations upon which he was shown the golden plates that became the book of Mormons. Adventists claim Ellen had an ‘accompanying angel’ which showed her many spiritual truths enabling her to published The Great Controversy. Like Joseph Smith’s claim that the book of Mormons was from God, “Ellen made much the same claim by The Great Controversy and her other publications. “It is God, and not an erring mortal that has spoken.” (Testimonies, Vol. III, p. 257).

        The problem, as I see it, those that have studied her books in particular the Great Controversy have concluded that it was not her ‘accompanying angel’ that showed her what she wrote in the Great Controversy, but really the work of other authors. And worst yet, some of these investigators were SDAs.

        Why do you so badly determined to believe in Ellen White? There has been far too many in the history of the church that have had visions, Joseph Smith and Ellen White are perhaps only the most well known. Perhaps you have not had the time to study religious phenomena – something you need to do.

        For instance, there was Ann Lee(1736-1784), one of the major leaders of the Shakers. Like Ellen she had little or no formal education, was part of a religious movement known for its remarkable religious exercises, and like Ellen, began to have visions and make revelations which she called ‘testimonies’. Like Ellen she was big on the second coming of Christ and like Ellen refused to have anything to do with other churches. Like Ellen she lead a life that was as morally pure as humanly possible.

        Then there was Joanna Southcott (b. 1750) wholly uneducated and joined the Methodist movement. She later announced herself as a prophetess, and published dozens of pamphlets setting forth her revelations. Her major written works was “A Book of Wonders’, which like The Great Controversy, was viewed as the most wonderful book of the age. She also like Ellen had trances and announced the speedy return of Jesus Christ. And like Ellen she made some big bucks ($$$$) on the sale of her books. Eventually her visions brought her to conclude that she was the bride of Christ being impregnated by the true Messiah. Both her and her followers were Sabbath keepers. Unfortunately for her many followers, Joanna died before the date she announced she would give birth to the “second Shiloh’. A post-mortem examination revealed she had been suffering from dropsy. It is believed that Ellen White also had medical issue stemming from the effects of an injury to her head- probably the cause of her many visions (over 2000).

        Any good book on religious radicalism and spiritual phenomena will show you that history is full of people that have had angelic visitations, trances and a large variety of other religious experiences. Why canonized Ellen White among the myriad of others that had much the same experiences?

        The following is a finding by a Dr. William Sadler, a physician who had studied phenomena of spiritualism for over 25 years and has professionally cared for ‘clairvoyants, medium, trance talker, automatic writers and other sorts of so-called psychics and sensitives.

        “It is not uncommon for persons in a cataleptic trance to imagine themselves taking trips to other worlds (Did not Ellen tell us something about visiting Saturn and other planets?). In fact the wonderful accounts of their experiences, which they write out after these cataleptic attacks are over, are so unique and marvelous as to serve the basis for founding new sects, cults, and religions. Many strange and unique religious movements have thus been founded and built up. It is an interesting study in psychology to note that these trances mediums always see visions in harmony with their own theological beliefs. For instance, a medium who believed in the natural immortality of the soul, was always led around on her celestial travels by some of her dead and departed friends. One day she changed her religious views – became a ‘soul sleeper’ and ever after that, when having trances, she was piloted about from world to world on her numerous heavenly trips by the angles; no dead or departed friends ever made their appearance in any of her visions after this change in her belief. Nearly all these victims of trances and nervous catalepsy, sooner or later come to believe themselves to be messengers of God and prophets of Heaven; and no doubt most of them are sincere in their beliefs. Not withstanding the physiology and psychology of their afflictions, they sincerely come to look upon their peculiar mental experiences as something supernatural which their followers blindly believe anything they teach because of the supposed divine character of these so-called revelations…. (p.117, It’s All about Jesus by E. F. Cooper)

        We really need to be suspicious of those claiming to have religious experience (and we all have or had them), especially those that believe they had angelic visitations. In any case, religious experience do not in themselves validate ones theology. If that were true, then you follow that theology that holds visions of the Virgin Mary. I once talked with one of these people that saw an apparition of the Virgin Mary. It is a waste of time trying to communicate with them.

      • Lee,

        Did you read the editorial introduction to the “Great Controversy”? It states plainly that Ellen relied on human sources for much of the material of the book.

        Have you read Joel 2:28 lately? Read and tell me what it says to you about visions and dreams in the last days!

        Nic Samojluk

      • Yes. I have read The Great Controversy and fully realize that it the preface acknowledges the fact that Ellen did rely heavily for much of the material of the book. And that is exactly what researches and critics have found. In that she did very little to credit other authors.

      • Lee,

        You may need to read said editorial introduction again!

        Remember that she was not her own publisher. Given the fact that she never finished grade school, I lay most of the responsibility for this fiasco on her publishers. Remember the anecdote I cited from my own experience.

        I was a M.A. candidate, and it was my major professor who almost cancelled my graduation. He said: “You either acknowledge your source properly, or else you are not graduating!” This did the trick. I located a typist who worked all night to type the final product which allowed me to graduate.

        Had my major professor allowed my work to be published with incomplete acknowledgement of sources, this would have reflected more on my teacher than on on me, a student.

        Nic Samojluk

      • You wrote: I was a M.A. candidate, and it was my major professor who almost cancelled my graduation. He said: “You either acknowledge your source properly, or else you are not graduating!” This did the trick. I located a typist who worked all night to type the final product which allowed me to graduate.

        In view of the reseach done by SDA researchers and others, we may conclude that Ellen would not have got a passing grade on what she published at well.

        While my father – a farmer- had only a 4th grade educaiton (he went to school only in the winter months) he continue to learn his trade to the point that he by the time of his death was one of the most successful farmers in that area having one of the larger farms.

        However,formal education does not alway create in one a depositor of truth as the truth from God is spiritually discerned.

        I thought you once told me you were a doctorate candidate having some 20 years formal education?

      • Lee,

        I got my doctoral dissertation approved five years ago, and I have already published my first book on Abortion.

        I can count 27 years of formal education; my dad had only one year of schooling and he managed to become a builder of homes, food factories, gymnasiums, and churches. How he managed to do this is a mystery to me.

        Nic Samojluk

      • I only have 8 years of college and really did not need that much formal education to understand that the Bible really does not support any of the unique tenets of Adventism.

        Some things are spiritually discernable and are revealed to those in Chirst who seek the truth.

      • Sorry Gentlemen . . . I am just a country-boy from Summit Station, Ohio.
        I only have a high school education.

        My education was growing up with a responsibility in our family business from the time I was 8-years old until I was 16. I manufactured ice cream commerically for one of our businesses and when I was 14-years old I was not only making the ice cream but selling and delivering it to our whole customers.

        When I was 16-years old I was married young and went to work for a national electric supply corporation the next 5-years. I have spent the past 52-years as a salesman, a buyer, a sales manager, a general manager and vice-president of a company. I have worked in lumber-yard-contractor sales & management, built two business for a company, worked in the wholesale lumber industry and wood prefinishing business. I am semi-retired and do the buying from my home office for a small company in Michigan as well as handle a few accounts.

        I lived and learned much from business and personal relationships, the hard way, but I have been blessed by our Lord Jesus Christ in everything I have done even though there have been times I wasn’t loyal to him!

        All I can say is, Jesus is my Saviour and I look to Him everyday, and to The Father, and Holy Spirit for my direction and thoughts. I’m sorry I haven’t been as faithful to them as they have been to me. But I love them with all my heart!

        Roger

      • Roger,

        Thanks for sharing your life experience with us! Experience is quite often more valuable than formal education. My dad had only one year of elementary education, yet he became a builder. In my case, I went to the other extreme, but I balanced this with 32 years working as a real estate broker.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Yes, I agree with Roger that formal education really do not always mean that one can be spiritually mature. It is that old lady sitting in the front row of a church that often knows the Lord from walking with Him over the years that can bet out those with far more formal education when it comes to knowing the Lord.

        All too often we mistake those with advanced degrees in theology with being more knowledgeable of spiritual things. Take for instance, a denomination that I left where the top hierarchy had advanced degrees but were advocating homosexual rights to church ordination. They viewed the Scripture simply as a reference point (PCUSA, vice moderator).

        I have read of a Baptist minister that told his congregation that he thought he was a Christian for years but only recently found that he was not. All he really had was head knowledge. He was not a born again Christian.

        On the other hand, those without an formal education in the ministry are all too often incapable of managing church affairs and in dealing with people. So we do demand a formal education for our ministers. And all too often, those without formal education are unable to understand the Scripture in the depth that is necessary as both a knowledge of the original languages and history are necessary.

        One , on the other hand, can be self educated.

      • Lee . . . I have found that asking the Holy Spirit to open my mind to understanding of the Scriptures before I open the Bible has compensated for my minimal education.

        Also real life expericence has been a continual source of education for me.

        I have heard the most learned twist and misinterpret the Scriptures!

        Roger

      • Roger I have found that asking the Holy Spirit to open my mind to understanding of the Scriptures before I open the Bible has compensated for my minimal education.

        Yes, that is exactly what the believer should do prior to reading the Bible. However while we pray that the Holy Spirit to open our minds to understanding, He has also given us teachers to guide us into understanding the Scripture. If you want an understanding of some aspect of Scripture that Holy Spirit may direct you to those whom He has sent to be our teachers.

        And that is the reason, I spend time reading the commentaries- wrtiten by those that Lord has given to His church.

      • And yet to continue to condemn Ellen White’s writings and accept some that Nic has labeled as unture!

        Lee, you cannot face the fact that the Sabbath is still the fourth commandment and still very much a part of the Ten Commandments!

        Again, look at Isaiah 66:22-23 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me, declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord.

      • Again, look at Isaiah 66:22-23 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me, declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord

        Look again at Isaiah 66:20-21 And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the LORD, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the LORD, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the LORD.

        If you believe that the Lord will re-establish the Old Covenant priesthood that pointed forward to the ministry of Christ, then obviously there is a problem here with your interpretation.

        You really need to guard against quoting scripture away from its context.

        Perhaps Isaiah 66:23 could better be interpreted as follows from the NLT-
        “All humanity will come to worship me from week to week
        and from month to month”

      • Lee,

        Did you read the editorial introduction to the “Great Controversy”? It states plainly that Ellen relied on human sources for much of the material of the book.

        Have you read Joel 2:28 lately? Read and tell me what it says to you about visions and dreams in the last days!

        Nic Samojluk

  47. Lee, you quoted Mt 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.”

    Did Jesus observe Sunday as the day of rest? He rested on the Sabbath after creation, he blessed said day, and made it holy thousands of years before the birth of the Jewish nation, he reminded them to keep said day holy, he predicted that said day would be kept in the earth made new.

    He kept it while on earth, he even kept it while waiting for resurrection Sunday, he advised his followers to pray that their flight would not take on the Sabbath day, and he told us through his servant John that there would be a Remnant keeping God’s Commandments before his return.
    Nic Samojluk

    Our guide is the New Covenant, not the tenets of the Old Covenant declared obsolete in Hebrews 13:8. While Jesus was Jewish, scripture does state very clearly in

    Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

    And what was our relationship to the law prior to becoming justified by faith?

    (3:24-26) So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

    So are we to be like Jesus, be circumcised, convert to Judaism and follow the Mosaic law given only only only to the nation of Israel?

    I do not believe so, as that was the issue confronting those at the Jerusalem council Acts 15.

    • Lee, you wrote: “Were the Waldensians Sabbath keepers? No, not according to modern Waldensians and church historians. It seems that this is a view held only by White and Andrews. Go figure!!!!”

      There is contrary evidence to this claim:

      “Robert Robinson writes that the people living in the valleys in different countries became known as the “valley dwellers,” or Vallenses. In fact, this author states his belief that the inhabitants of the Pyrenees were the true original Waldenses.34 The original word is the Latin, vallis. From it came “valleys” in English, Valdesi in Italian, Vaudois in French, and Valdenses in Spanish.35 Resolution 26 of the Council of Elvira having revealed that the early church of Spain kept the Sabbath, and history having proved that the Waldenses of north Spain existed at that time, these connections prove the keeping of the seventh-day Sabbath by the early Waldenses in Spain. …

      The Waldenses were so thoroughly a Bible people that they kept the seventh-day Sabbath as the sacred rest day for centuries. Two centuries after Pope Gregory I (A.D. 602) had issued the bull against the community of Sabbathkeepers in the city of Rome, a church council which disclosed the extent of Sabbathkeeping in that peninsula was held at Friaul, northern Italy (c. A.D. 791). Friaul was one of the three large duchies into which the Lombard kingdom had been originally organized.

      This council, in its command to all Christians to observe the Lord’s Day, testified to the wide observance of Saturday as follows: “Further when speaking of that Sabbath which the Jews observe, the last day of the week, which also all peasants observe.”39 About one hundred years later (A.D. 865-867), when the sharp contest between the Church of Rome and the Greek Church over the newly converted Bulgarians and their observance of the Sabbath came to the front, the question again entered into the controversy, as can be seen in the reply of Pope Nicolas I to the one hundred six questions propounded to him by the Bulgarian king.40 …

      That the Waldenses would be committed to Saturday as the Sabbath can be seen in these words: “They hold that none of the ordinances of the church that have been introduced since Christ’s ascension ought to be observed, being of no worth; the feasts, fasts, orders, blessings, offices of the church and the like, they utterly reject.”61 This is said of them in Bohemia. Erasmus testifies that even as late as about 1500 these Bohemians not only kept the seventh day scrupulously, but also were called Sabbatarians.62

      Thus, from historical statements, from unquestioned historical evidence that under various names and designations the Waldenses kept the Sabbath, as well as from their being called Sabbatati, Insabbatati, and other forms of this name, it is plain that one of the fundamental teachings and practices of the larger part of the Waldenses was that of observing the seventh day as the sacred day of the fourth commandment. …”

      http://www.sundaylaw.net/books/other/wilkerson/chapter16.html

      There are many Waldenses in Uruguay. A close friend of mine married a Walsenses girl, and as far as I know they keep the Sabbath as we Adventist do. This girl had no problem accepting Adventism because of the Sabbath.

      Nic Samojluk

      • ***Your source may be questionable!
        However, poor scholar Samuele Bacchiocchi made the following comment!

        Did some of the Waldenses observe the Sabbath? I spent several
        hours searching for an answer in the two scholarly volumes Storia dei
        Valdesi-(History of the Waldenses), authored by Amedeo Molnar and
        Augusto Hugon. These two books were published in 1974 by the Claudiana,
        which is the official Italian Waldensian publishing house. They are
        regarded as the most comprehensive history of the Waldenses. To my
        regret I found no allusion whatsoever to Sabbathkeeping among the
        Waldenses.

        http://www.lampofgold.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64:the-waldenses&catid=55:ellen-white&Itemid=59

      • You wrote:

        “Your source may be questionable! However, poor scholar Samuele Bacchiocchi made the following comment!
        Did some of the Waldenses observe the Sabbath? I spent several
        hours searching for an answer in the two scholarly volumes Storia dei
        Valdesi-(History of the Waldenses), authored by Amedeo Molnar and
        Augusto Hugon. These two books were published in 1974 by the Claudiana,
        which is the official Italian Waldensian publishing house. They are
        regarded as the most comprehensive history of the Waldenses. To my
        regret I found no allusion whatsoever to Sabbathkeeping among the
        Waldenses.”

        http://www.lampofgold.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64:the-waldenses&catid=55:ellen-white&Itemid=59

        This reminds me of what Kruschev, the former president of the Soviet Union, said on one occasion:

        “Our astronauts have explored space and did not see God.”

        Read the following about the Waldenses:

        “THE WALDENSES KEPT THE SABBATH

        The Waldenses were a body of Christians who stood aloof from the church in its alliance with the secular power, and consequently remained free from many of the corruptions and Pagan notions which the heathens had incorporated into their religion when they came into the national church. Moshiem in his Church History, Vol.I, p. 352, says “They complained that the Roman Church had degenerated under Constantine the great, from its primitive purity and sanctity. They denied the supremacy of the Roman Pontiff.”

        Robinson, in the History of Baptism, says, “They were called Sabbati and Sabbatati, so named from the Hebrew word Sabbath, because they kept Saturday for the Lord’s day.”

        Jones, in his Church History, says that because they would not observe saints’ days, they were falsely supposed to neglect the Sabbath also.

        A commissioner of Charles XII, of France, reported that he found among them none of the ceremonies, images, or signs, of the Romish Church, much less the crimes with which they were charged; on the contrary they kept the Sabbath-day, observed the ordinance of baptism according to the primitive church, and instructed their children in the articles of the Christian faith and commandments of God.”

        http://www.writtentreasures.org/html/waldenses.html

        Check the following source as well:

        “The Waldenses were so thoroughly a Bible people that they kept the seventh-day Sabbath as the sacred rest day for centuries. Two centuries after Pope Gregory I (A.D. 602) had issued the bull against the community of Sabbathkeepers in the city of Rome, a church council which disclosed the extent of Sabbathkeeping in that peninsula was held at Friaul, northern Italy (c. A.D. 791). Friaul was one of the three large duchies into which the Lombard kingdom had been originally organized.

        This council, in its command to all Christians to observe the Lord’s Day, testified to the wide observance of Saturday as follows: “Further when speaking of that Sabbath which the Jews observe, the last day of the week, which also all peasants observe.”39 About one hundred years later (A.D. 865-867), when the sharp contest between the Church of Rome and the Greek Church over the newly converted Bulgarians and their observance of the Sabbath came to the front, the question again entered into the controversy, as can be seen in the reply of Pope Nicolas I to the one hundred six questions propounded to him by the Bulgarian king.40

        http://www.sundaylaw.net/books/other/wilkerson/chapter16.html

        Check the following source also:

        Reformation

        Sects such as the Waldenses, Albigenses, and Leonists appear to have retained sabbath observance in Europe during the Middle Ages. A report of an inquisition, before which were brought some Waldenses of Moravia in the middle of the 15th century, declares that among the Waldenses “not a few indeed celebrate the Sabbath with the Jews.”[20] The Taiping Rebellion kept the sabbath in China. The Goa Inquisition attacked Sabbatarian Saint Thomas Christians.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_seventh-day_churches

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee,

        Here is evidence that the Sabbath was kept by a Remnant people throughout history:

        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The First Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Second Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Third Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Fourth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Fifth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Sixth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Seventh Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Eighth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Ninth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Tenth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Eleventh Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Twelveth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Thirteenth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Fourteenth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Fifteenth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Sixteenth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Seventeenth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Eighteenth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Nineteenth Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Twentieth Century A.D.

        http://www.remnantofgod.org/sabhist.htm#1

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee,
        Here is evidence that the Sabbath was kept by a Remnant people throughout history:
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The First Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Second Century A.D.
        • Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries – The Third Century A.D.

        There has always been those throughout the history of the church that have observed the Jewish Sabbath. However, they were a minority apart from the leaders of the church.

        Consider if you will what one of the early leaders of the Christian church had to say about Sabbath observance.

        True, there was a small heretical sect who kept the Sabbath as Judaizers do now. Of them he says: They are “those who cherish low and mean opinions of Christ. . . . With them the observance of the law was altogether necessary [just like Seventh-day Adventists] as if they could not be saved only by faith in Christ as a corresponding life. . . . They also observe the Sabbath and other discipline of the Jews just like them, but on the other hand they also celebrate the Lord’s Day very much like us in commemoration of his resurrection.” Eusebius Eccl. Hist., pages 112-113.

        Even these Judaizers kept Sunday. On the Ninety-second Psalm he says: “The word by the new covenant translated and transferred the feast of the Sabbath to the morning light and gave us the true rest, viz., the saving Lord’s Day.” “On this day which is the first of light and of the true Sun, we assemble, after an interval of six days, and celebrate holy and spiritual Sabbaths, even all nations redeemed by him throughout the world, and do those things according to the spiritual law which were decreed for the priests to do on the Sabbath.” Again: “And all things whatsoever that it was the duty to do on the Sabbath, these we have transferred to the Lord’s Day as more honorable than the Jewish Sabbath.” Quoted in Justin Edward’s Sabbath Manual, pages 126-127. This testimony of the great historian of the early

        Canright, D.M. (2011-07-01). Seventh-Day Adventism Renounced (Kindle Locations 3079-3086). Contender Media & Books. Kindle Edition.

      • Lee,

        You have chosen to listen to Canright and the leaders of the Christian Church who deviated from a “Thus said the Lord.”

        You will never find the truth from these apostate Christians.

        Nic Samojluk

      • //You have chosen to listen to Canright and the leaders of the Christian Church who deviated from a “Thus said the Lord.”You will never find the truth from these apostate Christians.

        Yes I can only agree that we should examine all sides of any issue as may be presented by those in favor and those again. And we should endeavor to realize our own bias and accept what the truth is despite the pain that may result.

        EllenWhite, on the other hand, has only only only the “thus saith the Lord” from other authors. She really has no uniqueness among others in the religious radicalism of the early 1800′s. There were many others that had visions, spoke in tongues, and believed what they thought was God speaking through them.

        Of her own words she blasphemously writes: — “It is God, and not an erring mortal that has spoken.” (Testimonies, Vol. III, p. 257).

        Pollock, A. J. (2012-04-18). Seventh Day Adventism (Kindle Locations 32-33). Bible Truth Publishers. Kindle Edition.

      • Lee,

        I have no idea why you bring Ellen White over and over again! She always emphasized our need to study the Word of God. This is what I try to do!

        Nic Samojluk

      • You wrote: I have no idea why you bring Ellen White over and over again! She always emphasized our need to study the Word of God. This is what I try to do!

        I am surprised that you said that!

        According the SDA 28 fundamental beliefs, the writings of Ellen White are regarded on the same level as the Bible. But it really is HER INTERPRETATION of the Bible as well as her unique doctrinal beliefs that find objections with Bible students.

        To be a Seventh Day Adventist, you have to recognize Ellen White.
        (you will not find a dedicated SDA that does not hold the view that Ellen was a special messenger of God on the same level as the OT prophets or the Apostles).

      • Lee,

        Your statement is inaccurate. The Adventist Church does not hold the writings of Ellen White on the same level as the Bible. Ellen White herself has denied this. She always pointed to the Bible at the final arbiter between truth and error until the moment of her death.

        Making erroneous statements does not build up your credibility among Adventists.

      • Ok, so I am not in the exact middle of the bullseye but I believe I am close to it.

        Article #18 of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of Adventism

        18. The Gift of Prophecy:
        One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

        More accurately we can say that it is her interpretation of the Bible that is paramount and is “a continuing and authoritative source of truth”. If authoritative then the Adventists has to recognize it for what it is.

        And it is my understanding that every Adventist has to subscribe to these 28 tenets. Is it not part of your baptisimal ordinance?

      • Lee . . . How subtle and deceiving was your comment in trying to discredit Ellen White . . . Leave her alone and let’s just refer to the Bible Scriptures but let’s not just pull a scirpture out of context but quote the scriptures that are meant to be included.

      • Roger, Ellen White as you may know laid the foundation of Adventist non-orthodox doctrine.

        And yes there are some Adventists that would greatly like to junk her and her theology and get on with the task of spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ to a world that is going to hell in a bushel basket.

        Time is short and here we are with Ellen White standing in your way of Christians working together for this objective.

      • Lee, have I not asked you to refrain from discussing Ellen White and confine our thoughts and comments to those from the Bible.

        Again and again . . . Why would Jesus be keeping the Sabbath in the New Testament if He didn’t want us to ?

        Lee your arguments are from misinterpeting the Scriptures and from men … and you accuse Ellen White of quoting others . . . My.. My.. Lee!
        for shame!

        Roger

      • //Lee, have I not asked you to refrain from discussing Ellen White and confine our thoughts and comments to those from the Bible.

        Sorry there Roger, you in discussing the Bible, you are bound bound bound by the interpretation given by Ellen White. You simply do not have any freedom to have any other interpretation of either the Bible or church history than who was presented by Ellen White. Did she not not not prove what Scripture is teaching by her visions?

      • Sorry Lee . . . I made my decision to keep the Sabbath when I was 16-years old and I didn’t know who Ellen White was. My study is from the Bible and Ellen White’s writings are certainly secondary to the Scriptures. We Adventis don’t live and die by Ellen White’s writings . . . The BIBLE & only the BIBLE !!!
        Lee, you mis-judge us as Adventist’s and you are attacking & twisting Scripture.

        And who is influencing your thoughts & beliefs? You more often than not use human sources!

        You just continue to twist, turn and mis-interpret the Scriptures.

        Your attacks on Ellen White are growing very tiresome . . . I ask you again, let’s refrain from discussing Ellen White and stay with the Scriptures from the Bible . . . Okay ! ??

        Roger

      • You wrote; I made my decision to keep the Sabbath when I was 16-years old and I didn’t know who Ellen White was. My study is from the Bible and Ellen White’s writings are certainly secondary to the Scriptures. We Adventists don’t live and die by Ellen White’s writings . . . The BIBLE & only the BIBLE !!!
        ******
        What I differ with you on is whether one should be required keep the Jewish Sabbath as the church is under the New not the Old Covenant. And that is BIBLE & only the BIBLE!!!

        And where we differ is on the 3 pillars of Adventism which in my understanding is really an interpretation of the Bible held by its founders.

        Sorry but those that worship God in spirit and in truth on Sundays do not belong to Satan because they have communal worship on Sundays. And we see that garbage all too often in Adventist literature.

        And you say I misinterpret Adventism? Are those that worship the God of the Bible Roman Catholics just because they have communal worship on Sundays? That is what we see in Adventist literature.

        John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

      • Lee . . . ‘Garbage’ ……… What have you been throwing at us . . . Your getting a little too demeaning here!

        We havent’t demeaned or applied negative names to your Gideon or Presbyterian religions and would appreciate you respecting ours.

        Why can’t you answer why Jesus kept the Sabbath ?

        Matthew 12:1 ……. Matthew 22:37-40 ……. Matthew 28:1

        Roger

      • .You wrote: Why can’t you answer why Jesus kept the Sabbath ?

        Matthew 12:1 ……. Matthew 22:37-40 ……. Matthew 28:1
        ***
        The simplest answere is found in Scripture itself.

        Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to REDEEM those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

        Why do you so willfully ignore this verse?

        Also while you beleive that the Jerusalem council Acts 15 excused Gentiles only from circumcision, I maintain that this Council did not require Gentile believers to convert to Judaism.

        The demand of some of the Jews was simply that the Gentiles should be required to become circumcised AND observe the laws of Moses.

        Acts 15:5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them AND to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

        And we certainly have the testimonies of the leaders of the early church, some of them being the direct succdessors of the Apostles themselves. that the non-moral laws of Judaism were not required of believers.

        Sorry but nothing unique to Adventism can find any support in the wriitings of the leaders of the early church. Those these are human sources, they do tell us what the early church beleived as to interpretation of God;s Word.

        In some cases, we can see the division with the early church with those who advocated adherence to Judaism and those who believed otherwise.

        Ga 2:12 For before certain men came from James, he (Peter) was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.

        it was the “circumcision party” that became the “Sabbath keeping party’. Agree?

      • Lee . . . You are convoluting the Scriptures to say what you want them to say.

        You still haven’t answered my question to the above three Scriptures …and
        the fact that we will celebrage the Sabbath in Heaven. Isaiah 66:22-23

        Roger

      • .You wrote: Why can’t you answer why Jesus kept the Sabbath ? Matthew 12:1 ……. Matthew 22:37-40 ……. Matthew 28:1 *** The simplest answer is found in Scripture itself. Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to REDEEM those who [...]

        Lee . . . You are convoluting the Scriptures to say what you want them to say.

        Convoluting??? I merely quoted the Scripture which should answer your question. Scripture says what it says! Try reading Galatians 4:4-5 a little slower, or find yourself a good Bible commentary.

        //You still haven’t answered my question to the above three Scriptures …and
        the fact that we will celibate the Sabbath in Heaven. Isaiah 66:22-23

        Isaiah 66: 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

        Isaiah 66:21 1 “And I will appoint some of them (returning Israel) to be my priests and Levites. I, the LORD, have spoken!

        The question I would ask is whether the Lord will establish the Old Covenant priesthood – a priesthood whose activities merely foretold the ministry of Christ and that one sufficient sacrifice on the Cross for our atonement.

        Perhaps the above verse should better be translated as found in the New Living Translation?

        “All humanity will come to worship me from week to week and from month to month.”

        Why do you think it necessary that in the world to come, there will be some kind of time reckoning? The age to come will be timeless and there would be no necessity for observing a 7 day Sabbath.

      • . . . and Ellen White said, ‘If there is a question between my writings and the Bible . . . Take what the Bible says!’

        Roger

      • . and Ellen White said, ‘If there is a question between my writings and the Bible . . . Take what the Bible says!’

        ****And in taking what the Bible says, is the main reason why most Christians do not not not take Ellen White’s interpretation of the Bible. Like the Roman Church “infallible” pope, Adventist hold her to be an infallible interpretor of scripture – and that is the centerpiece of Adventism.

      • Lee . . . We Adventist’s follow the Bible Scripture . . . Ellen White’s writings are used to amplfy not replace the Bible. But, if there is a question between the two, we follow Scripture . . . Again, Ellen White stated that if there was a question she said, “Follow the Bible not my wiritings!’

        Roger

  48. Lee, you wrote: “DA Carson who edited a compilation by various scholars entitled “From Sabbath to Lord’s Day – a biblical, historical and theological investigation” depicts the fact that the early church met on the Lord’s day as well as the Sabbath. But that all changed when the Jewish establishment forbid Christians to worship in the synagogues.”

    Thank you for confirming what actually happened. This seems to match what Bacchiocchi discovered as a result of his investigation. Originally, both Jewish and Gentile Christians did observe both days, and later on the majority of Christians abandoned Sabbath worship.

    ****But by early second century communal worship on Sundays was the norm.

    True that Bacchiocchi does claim the transition was fear of persecution by the Romans after Hadrian suppressed the Jewish rebellions. Most likely there remained a large measure of contention between Christian Jews and Gentile converts to the point that there was a separation with the Gentiles marking the Lord’s day instead of the Jewish Sabbath.

    You wrote: “The view held by Adventism that the Roman Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday is totally untenable” According to the scholarly investigation performed by Bacchiocchi, the change from Sabbath to Sunday took place in Rome. I believe that he is correct on this theory.

    According to Bacchiocchi, the persecution and animosity between Gentiles and Jews was the primary reason for Gentiles not observing the Sabbath. This is one point of difference between Bacchiocchi and Ellen White, the latter claimed the Roman Catholic Church made the change in the 4th century. We also read of the dissension in the Roman Church that Roman Emperor Claudius kicked the Jews out of Rome. The problem was widely reported to be over the law. Most likely Jewish Christians still insisted on circumcision, the Levitical dietary laws, and the Sabbath as well as other holy days. Acts 18:2 around 49 AD.

    You quoted the Anglican Westminster Confession:

    “The Sabbath goes back to the creation of the world, when it was ordained by God for all the ages, as a basic structure of human life, along with marriage and labor. To remember the Sabbath means to uphold its distinctiveness from other days of the week. This is a precept of the enduring moral law, set down in the ten commandments. When those ten word were first given, observance of the Sabbath was grounded in a recognition of what God had done in bringing the world into existence. When the ten commandments were reissued in Deuteronomy, a further reason was given for Sabbath observance, for now the people were exhorted to consider that God had redeemed them from bondage. These two considerations were summed up in the ninety-second Psalm, designated as intended for the Sabbath, when worshipers were called to reflect on mighty works of all kinds done by God. The Sabbath is a day to worship God for what he has done.”
    …” http://www.westminsterconfession.org/identity/observance-of-the-sabbath.phpDo

    And then you said:
    “you need more evidence than this to admit that your position is wrong?”
    I have been piling evidence on evidence, but you seem to be determined to negate what is crystal clear to me, to Adventists, to Dr. Bacchiocchi, and even to those who wrote the Westminster Confession.

    *** As I previously stated, there were those in the church that held the view that the Sabbath was transferred to Sunday by Jesus or His disciples. Most Bible scholars today hold the view that the NT scripture does not command Christian to observe any day as holy. The 10 commandments was the Old Covenant. Ex 34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. And the Sabbath became the ‘sign’ of that old covenant – give only to the Jewish nation. Gentiles were never told to observe the Sabbath either then or in the New Covenant.

    You wrote: “Do the research and you will find that while the Roman Church claims to have changed the Sabbath to Sunday, they also claim their church did that back in the days of the Apostles.”

    This should not surprise anybody! Error usually comes mixed with truth. Naked error is normally rejected by people. In order to succeed, error needs to be wedded to truth to succeed.

    ***You really need to acknowledge that fact that the Roman Church catechism does in fact, state that the Sabbath change to Sundays was during Apostolic times. Again, I repeat they view the early church as being Roman Catholic with Peter the first pope.

    You said: “Old Ellen on the other hand believed the Roman pope made a decree to change the Sabbath to Sunday but no Adventist to date has been able to identify a pope or a council from which that was done.”

    Ellen was not a historian, while Bacchiocchi was one!

    Yes, that certainly is a fact and much of what she states in her Great Controversy is simply not historically true. Were the Waldensians Sabbath keepers? No, not according to modern Waldensians and church historians. It seems that this is a view held only by White and Andrews. Go figure!!!!

    Nic Samojluk

    • Lee, you cited: “Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

      And what was our relationship to the law prior to becoming justified by faith?

      (3:24-26) So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.”

      Yes, the function of the Law is to bring us to Christ. But do not forget how Paul explained this. First he asked a question:

      New International Version (©1984)
      What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

      Then he explained the real function of the Law:

      New International Version (©1984)
      What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”

      This reference is to the Ten Commandments as evidenced by the fact that he identifies one of the Ten. If you ignore the Ten, or one of the Ten, you have no way of knowing whether there is sin in your life.

      Once the Law identifies sin in our life, this knowledge leads us to Christ, our Savior.

      New International Version (©1984)
      So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

      Then Paul added the following:

      New International Version (©1984)
      So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

      If we follow these steps outlined by Paul, we become free, free from the condemnation of the Law, free from sin, but not free to sin!

      Do not forget that Paul was a lawyer, and sometimes it is not easy to understand lawyerly language, this is why Peter stated that there were some things written by Paul which are hard to understand.

      Nic Samojluk

      • with respect to the purpose of the law according to Galatians to lead us to Christ, you wrote “And what was our relationship to the law prior to becoming justified by faith?”

        As someone that is in Christ, the law is no longer applicable.

        Galatians Ga 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian ((or schoolmaster, the law).

        And yes we still have an obligation to moral law as such reflects the holiness of God.

      • Lee, you wrote:

        “As someone that is in Christ, the law is no longer applicable.”

        I don’t know whether you have ever heard about Dr. Ivan Blazen. He is an expert in the New Testament and a Loma Linda University professor. He was teaching the Sabbath School lesson last Sabbath and devoted one hour and a half to your cherished topic: Romans 14:6, Galatians 4:10, and Colossians 2:16.

        He did agree with all your arguments against the observance of the Sabbath. When he was done, one of the members asked: Do you mean that we no longer need to keep the Sabbath.

        “Right,” he answered. We do not keep the Sabbath or any other Commandment in order to be saved, but rather because we are already saved. We love God and our neighbors because we have been saved. And we keep the Sabbath also because we have been saved.

        Notice that Paul argued that neither Jews nor gentiles are justified by keeping the Law. The function of the Law is not to save but you lead us to Christ. This is true about Jews and Christians. The Jews were expected to keep 613 regulations; Christian only Ten.

        15“We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.” [Gal. 2:15-16]

        You also wrote:

        “And yes we still have an obligation to moral law as such reflects the holiness of God.”

        Your problem is that you believe that the moral law includes only our love towards our neighbors. How about our duty to love God above all things? This duty is clearly taught in the New Testament, and it includes not having other gods, not taking God’s name in vain, avoiding idolatry, and keeping the Sabbath holy.

        Nic Samojluk

  49. Lee, you wrote: “Quite the contrary as you are really finding fault with the Bible.”
    I do not find fault with the Bible, but rather with your unbiblical views. The Bible is fine, but not perfect, since it was written by fallible men, and more so considering that we do not have access to the original manuscripts.

    ***We really need to listen to those God called into the ministry of teaching. I am sure you will find the unique views promoted by Adventism are contrary to nearly all other expositors of the Bible. As to historians, they must be able to document their sources in order to be credible. Andrews, in my view as well as in others, is not a credible historian.

    You said: “You also are standing in judgment of the saints of His church who throughout the centuries did not observe the Jewish Sabbath.” Most of the saints departed frogtm the truth as was predicted by the Apostle Paul.

    ***Most saints were saints because they had a deep and abiding relationship to Christ and were extremely diligent in obeying all that was from God. If Sunday worship was the norm in Gentile churches by the second century, most likely Sabbath keeping was not not not taught by the Apostles or their immediate successors.

    Bacchiocchi did explain how this took place and why this happened. Nevertheless, there have always been members of the Remnant Christian Church who remained faithful to all the Ten Rules for human behavior, including the Sabbath.

    ***The religionist is really a blind person believing that he merits flavor with God by obedience to the law, especially the 10 commandment laws. Sorry but the Bible is very clear that the ‘righteous live by faith” Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11. It is by faith that we are justified as the righteousness of Christ has been imputed to those who believe in Him.
    One is not justified (declared righteous) by keeping the OT commandments. Even Ellen believed that when she talked out of both sides of her mouth.

    You wrote: “What right does Adventism have in claiming they alone have all the truth?”
    I do not believe that there is any human religious organization possessing all the truth. Some Adventist do believe this, but I do not share this! We all have come short of God’s glory. But, as far as the Sabbath is concerned, I am convinced that we Adventists are on the right track.
    ***Adventists in claiming they are the remnant church do indeed claim they alone possess the truth. Howbeit Adventism is a fairly new religion birthed in the religious radicalism of the early 1800’s. And like Mormonism, claims that the church became corrupted and they alone had the light.

    You wrote: “About the only difference is that Ellen had a husband that exploited her visions as a means of financial gain and control.”
    If financial gain was the motivation of James White, he would not have allowed the church to invest so much into Christian education. Christian education is a black hole which keeps swallowing all the money which comes close to it.
    The same can be said about evangelism. When Ellen White died, she had a huge debt which took many years to erase. She kept borrowing all the money she could for the advancement of the Gospel.

    ***She really spend the majority of her money on her lavish lifestyle. She traveled to other countries, had servants and possessed a fairly large estate for her times. I am not convinced that she was really that interested in promoting the gospel as the gospel is the good news of our salvation for those who believe in Christ; it is not observance of the Sabbath, becoming a vegetarian, or standing in judgment of other Christians.

    You stated: “Slavery & polygamy found its death with Christianity as Christians were the leaders against these social evils.”

    You use silence to deny the validity and permanence of Sabbath worship, and at the same time to affirm the death of polygamy. You can’t have it both ways!
    ***The subjects are quite different as Scripture plainly does not promote observance of any day as holy, or that we cannot eat certain foods, but it does promote brotherly love toward others and in that it would be very hard to justify slavery or polygamy (remember that Jesus said in the beginning God created one man and one woman).

    • Lee, you wrote: “If you hold the view that only only only the location changed, then you have the problem of sorting out all the 600+ law found in the Old Testament that were also applicable in the New Testament.”

      You are ignoring the fact that the one writing those laws in people’s minds and hearts is God himself. Expecting God to write the 600+ laws makes no sense, since those laws were written by Moses—not God. The laws which God wrote on tablets of stone were only Ten, and the Ten included the Sabbath. These are the laws which God promised to write on peoples minds and heart.

      You also said: “You need to face that face as to how most devout Adventists view old Ellen White”

      There is diversity in the way Ellen is perceived by Adventists, but the official position is that the Bible has primacy over the writings of Mrs. White.

      How many Adventists do you know who are trying to impose the observance of the 600+ Jewish laws on Adventist converts? The real controversy is only about the Ten, and you do agree with Nine of them. Which boils down to only one: the Sabbath, the one which is a reminder of the creation and the Creator.

      We Adventists are not defending the Old Covenant, but rather the New One, which God promised to write in our hearts. The reference to the heart indicates that we do love all the Ten, including the Sabbath. We love the Sabbath because it reminds us of our need to worship the one who created us and the one who is recreating us in his own image, like in the beginning!

      Nic Samojluk

      • Did God wrote the 10 comandments onto believers hearts? If He did then we would see something of a testimony to that effect on those who have been believers in Him over the centuries but we do not see anything of the OT Sababth. What we do see, however, in the lives of believers is the love being the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:9f

        What you have is an assumption not backed up by anything in Scripture. Again, if observance of a day were of any great importance in the lives of Chrisitan we would must certain see it commanded in the Epistles as well as taught in the early church. However, there is nothing in the Epistles nor do we see anything that supports the Sabbath in the writings of the Early church leaders.

        What we do see in Scripture – especially in Acts. is that the early church met on the Lord’s day, Sunday Acts 20:7 where they gathered to break bread as was thier custom and to lay aside resouirces for the Church 1 Cor. 16:2.

        Finally we have the testimony of church history that communal worship on Sundays was the norm.

      • Lee, you wrote:

        “What we do see, however, in the lives of believers is the love being the fulfillment of the law.”

        Love towards both God and our neighbors, or only towards our neighbors? You are purposely omitting the Commandments dealing with our duty to God!

        You also said:

        Jesus made it very clear that our foremost religious duty is our love towards God, which is expressed by the first four Commandment of the Decalogue.

        You wrote:

        “What we do see in Scripture – especially in Acts. is that the early church met on the Lord’s day, Sunday Acts 20:7”
        For the Jews, the day started at sunset—not at midnight nor sunrise. This means that the meeting took place on what we call Saturday evening.

        You added:
        “where they gathered to break bread as was thier custom and to lay aside resources for the Church 1 Cor. 16:2.”

        Notice the following version:

        International Standard Version (©2008)

        “After the Sabbath ends, each of you should set aside and save something from your surplus in proportion to what you have, so that no collections will have to be made when I arrive.”

        Again, considering the fact that for the Jews a new day started at sunset instead of midnight or sunrise, this setting aside of offerings must have taken place on what we call today Saturday evening.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you wrote:
        “What we do see, however, in the lives of believers is the love being the fulfillment of the law.”
        .
        .
        .
        .
        Notice the following version:
        International Standard Version (©2008)
        “After the Sabbath ends, each of you should set aside and save something from your surplus in proportion to what you have, so that no collections will have to be made when I arrive.”
        Again, considering the fact that for the Jews a new day started at sunset instead of midnight or sunrise, this setting aside of offerings must have taken place on what we call today Saturday evening.
        ***
        While this peculiar translation my indicate that the Gentile church observed the Sabbath, I do not see this verse i in the latest update 2011.

        “The NIV Study Bible is a study Bible originally published by Zondervan in 1985 which uses the New International Version (NIV). Revisions include 1995, a full revision in 2002, an update in October 2008 for the 30th anniversary of the NIV, and a new update in 2011″

        If the 2008 edition had 1 Corinthians 16:2 as “Afer the Sabbath…” it did not survive the revision of 2011 which reads as follows:

        On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

        Does the Greek have the word “Sabbath” on 1 Corinthians 16:2. My interlinear Greek-English say “no”.

      • Lee,

        The translation I have chosen does not clash with my doctrinal views!

        Nic Samojluk

      • You wrote: “The translation I have chosen does not clash with my doctrinal views!”

        I often go to the various commentaries for my doctrinal views. Christians are not to be independence in their beliefs.

        Independence of mind is a good thing up to a point, but if it leads the child to attempt to educate himself without the aid of a teacher; or the apprentice to learn his trade without the help of his master; or the Christian to refuse help from the gifts given by the ascended Lord to His Church, it can only work disaster.

        And such was he case with the founders of Adventism while they held the Bible alone to be their sole sources of doctrine, it was their erroneous interpretation of the Bible that led them into doctrinal error.

        The main doctrinal views of Adventism was established by dirt farmers who has little or no training in theology.

      • Lee,

        The same accusation was made against Jesus and his disciples who were, according to the Jewish leaders, a bunch of ignorant Galileans.

        Nic Samojluk

      • You wrote: The same accusation was made against Jesus and his disciples who were, according to the Jewish leaders, a bunch of ignorant Galileans.

        yes, it is all too easy to see that those who believe they alone are correct because of their affliation do often label those who disagree with them as beinig ignorant.

        I spent nearly 4 years debating theology with Roman Catholics – from a priest to one of their leading apologist as well as debating with a convert from protestantism on his radio station. They often felt that i was ignorant but once I came into the truth as some of them have, I would happily embrace catholicism. Adventists I believe have much the same viewpoint, true?

        My wife was once a devouted Roman Catholic with a brother who was a priest.But now she is a devout Bible believing Christian.

        I got much the same arguments with Mormon (I have a Mormon cousin whom I am still in debate with). And yes, I read the Book of Mormons, large sections of the writings of their “prophets”..

      • Lee,

        I read the Book of Mormon as well when I was a teenager, but I was not impressed. But I must confess that I was impressed with the Christian witness of Mormons on one occasion.

        We were selling Adventist books in a city with no Adventist presence, and we felt hungry to hear God’s Word. We located a Mormon Church and sat in the back to make sure we would be able to make a fast exit when the meeting was over.

        The preaching was great, and no sooner the benediction took place we were out; but a young man moved even faster and invited us to the social they had scheduled for the evening. When he said that there were refreshments and games like ping pong, we could not resist.

        It was a pleasant evening, and the kindness of these people could not have been greater. Their Christian witness shone really bright that day.

  50. Lee, you wrote: “And yes there has been minor groups throughout the history of the church that did observe the OT Sabbath but they were of a minority view.”
    Correct. They were members of those described as the Remnant in the book of Revelation who kept all Ten of God’s Commandment!

    ***The problem here is that Adventism claims these verses in Revelation pertain to the ten commandments but none of these texts really states “ten commandments’. This is simply something they read into the text. Adventists in their fascination with the 10 commandments have been trained to put “ten” in front of “commandments” when they see the word even in the New Testament.

    John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    Biblical scholars have provided good reasons to believe what John is referring to here is not not not the commandments of the Decalogue.

    You said: “True, there was a small heretical sect who kept the Sabbath as Judaizers do now.”
    God’s faithful Remnant have always been accused of heresy. Jesus and his followers have been treated in like manner throughout history.

    ***What I really see is that most of the arguments Adventist give is support of their unique unique unique doctrinal beliefs are questionable from the standpoint of both the Bible and church history. You must recall that Adventism was birthed in the fanaticalism of the early 1800’s. And those unique doctrines of Adventism were invented by those with little or no former training in the exegetics of Scripture. And ever worst yet, those that originated some of these unique doctrines came latter to reject them.

    You quoted Eusebius as follows: : “And all things whatsoever that it was the duty to do on the Sabbath, these we have transferred to the Lord’s Day as more honorable than the Jewish Sabbath.” (Eusebius Commentary on Psalms 92)“
    I am amazed that you quote Eusebius as an authority, who claims that the church did transfer the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath to Sunday, and then argue that Adventists are wrong in stating the same.

    ***If you really do research on these topics one must be careful not to draw conclusion on the writings of one individual. The fact is that the early church fathers also had their disagreements, but I do not see any disagreements when it comes to the observance of the OT Sabbath. None of the fathers supported the observance of the Sabbath.

    You wrote: “To get some idea as to how the Sabbath was no longer observed, and how Sunday became the day Christians met, suggest the following reading by Samuel Bacchiocchi SDA church historian Andrews University.
    http://www.biblicalperspeectives.com/books/sabbath_to_sunday/6.html”
    Thanks for this link! Here is one of his statements:
    “The introduction of Sunday worship in place of “Jewish” Sabbath..keeping—the latter being particularly derided by several Roman writers of the time—could well represent a measure taken by the leaders of the Church of Rome to evidence their severance from Judaism and thereby also avoid the payment of a discriminatory tax.”

    ***Howbeit, Bacchiocchi does not take into account that there were those in other countries that held much the same view as did those in Rome. For instance, the Council of Laodicea was a regional conference of Greek, not Roman, bishops. And the Sabbath at council was condemned as Judaizing of the faith.

    Bacchiocchi’s reasoning seems quite kosher to me. I am at a loss at your rejection of what sounds so logic and plausible! And you do not trust in the Westminster Confession either! I see a big problem with your views!
    Nic Samojluk
    ***Much of what Bacchiocchi wrote is disputed and answered by Kerry Wynne – a third generation Adventist and graduate of Pacific Union College and Andrews University.
    http://www.bible.ca/7-sabbathgate-1888ad-Kerry-Wynne.htm

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/47752412/Dr-Bacchiocchi-the-Sabbath-and-the-Writings-of-Paul-Kerry-Wynne

    • Lee, you wrote: “It is possible that there were those that were ˜worshippers of God” but had not joined themselves to Judaism but they may have been few and far between.”

      Perhaps not so few: “The terms are found in synagogue inscriptions in Aphrodisias.[3] Judging from the distinctions in the Book of Acts it is thought that they did not become full Proselytes to Judaism, which required circumcision,[4] … There are also around 300 text references 4th C BCE – 3rd C CE to a sect of Hypsistarians some of whom practised Sabbath and which many scholars see as sympathizers with Judaism related to God fearers.[6]”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God-fearer

      The Bible identifies Lydia as a worshiper of God, which is another name for God

      Nic Samojluk

      • In regard to your comments on Lydia being a ‘worshiper of God’, most of the commentaries tell us she was a proselytes. However, John Gill’s commentary on Acts 18:7 regarding worshiper of God has the following-

        One that worshipped God; a Gentile, but a religious man, such an one as Cornelius: he might be a proselyte either of the gate, or of righteousness; though if he was the same with Titus, he could not be the latter, because he was not circumcised, #Ga 2:3 whose house joined hard to the synagogue; had this man been a Jew, his house might very well have been taken for the house which was tonkh tybl Kwmo, “near to the synagogue,” in which travellers were entertained, and ate, and drank, and lodged {i}; and that he was the person appointed to take care of them, and so a very suitable house for Paul, a stranger, to take up his lodging in. The Ethiopic version adds, very wrongly, taking it from the beginning of the next verse, “because he was the ruler of the synagogue”; as if Justus was the ruler of the synagogue; and this the reason why his house was so near; whereas not he, but Crispus, was the ruler, as follows.

      • Lee, you wrote:

        “In regard to your comments on Lydia being a ‘worshiper of God’, most of the commentaries tell us she was a proselytes. However, John Gill’s commentary on Acts 18:7 regarding worshiper of God has the following-“

        The evidence seems to suggest that she was simply a “worshipper of God’ instead of a convert to Judaism.

        “The Bible tells us that Lydia was a businesswoman, a dealer of purple cloth. She must have been successful since, as we see later, her home was large enough to house Paul, his three companions, Lydia’s family and servants. The Bible tells us that she was a worshipper of God. She was a gentile who believed in the True God of Israel but had not fully converted to Judaism and she had not yet become a believer in Christ.”

        http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art7015.asp

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, you wrote:

        “In regard to your comments on Lydia being a ‘worshiper of God’, most of the commentaries tell us she was a proselytes. However, John Gill’s commentary on Acts 18:7 regarding worshiper of God has the following-“

        The evidence seems to suggest that she was simply a “worshipper of God’ instead of a convert to Judaism.

        “The Bible tells us that Lydia was a businesswoman, a dealer of purple cloth. She must have been successful since, as we see later, her home was large enough to house Paul, his three companions, Lydia’s family and servants. The Bible tells us that she was a worshipper of God. She was a gentile who believed in the True God of Israel but had not fully converted to Judaism and she had not yet become a believer in Christ.”
        ***
        I have no real major disagreement with who Lydia may have been. However, the record is really unclear what she did after she became a convert to the Christian faith. Since Paul was her advocate as well as to the other Gentiles,it is probable that she agreed with the decision of the Jerusalem council that she needed not observe laws that were peculiar to Judaism, and such is the Sabbath. Mere speculation on both our parts, correct?

      • Lee,

        You are ignoring the context and misinterpreting the text. Read the passage with care this time:

        New International Version (©1984)
        “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” [Acts 15:19-21]

        Notice that most of the Ten Commandments are omitted. This means that this list is not exhaustive. The reason for this omission is given in verse 21:

        “For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

        These worshippers of God were familiar with the Ten Commandments because they worshipped God with the Jews in their synagogues.

        Are you suggesting that Lydia was free to break all the other Commandments of the Decalogue? You need to use common sense and pay close attention to the context!

        Nic Samojluk

      • New International Version (©1984)
        “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. BECAUSE Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” [Acts 15:19-21]

        The early church was built around the Jewish synagogues and it was necessary for Gentile converts not to flog beliefs held by their Jewish brethren.

        BTW, Christians did not sit around and listen to Moses preached but instead gathered to exhort each others and to met others needs.

        Hebrew10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

      • Lee,

        Your problem is that you assume that the directive emanated from the Jerusalem Council is an exhaustive list of all the moral obligations imposed on the Gentile Christians. If this were true, then we would be free to steal, murder, and fornicate.

        Nic Samojluk

      • You wrote: Your problem is that you assume that the directive emanated from the Jerusalem Council is an exhaustive list of all the moral obligations imposed on the Gentile Christians. If this were true, then we would be free to steal, murder, and fornicate.

        I believe Gentiles already knew what constituted moral law as that is something in common in nearly all societies.

        Consider Romans 2:14-15 NIV

        Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.

        So there was really no necessity to teach them moral law.

        What they did at the Jerusalm council was to declare Gentiles need not become circumcised or have to obey the Mosaic law (Acts 15;5)

        Circumcision, as you may need to realize, was effectively the entry rite into the Jewish religion. Once a person became circumcised that person was obligated to observe all the laws found in Judaism including the Sabbath observance.

        Galatian 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the WHOLE law.

      • Lee,

        You keep conflating the weekly Sabbath which God himself enshrined in the Decalogue with the Yearly Sabbaths.

  51. Lee, you wrote: “I never had a problem in believing that the earliest Jewish Christians continued to observe the Torah laws as well as the Sabbath. But that was not the case with the Gentile church.”

    I have download the article that has this quote and couple of years ago. “Sabbath and Sunday in Early Christianity, Part 1; the first century http://www.gci.org/law/sabbath/history1

    gci = Grace Community International which used to be the Worldwide Church of God (Herbert W. Armstrong’s cult). They have since joined the evangelical Christian churches and no longer observe the Sabbath.

    How much biblical evidence do you have in support of this view of yours?

    ***I believe I have fully and with as much objectively as possible studied these issues.

    You also said: “It is easy to see that none none none of the early church writers that were leaders of Gentile churches neither taught observed the Sabbath or any laws that was distinctively Jewish in nature.”

    Paul was the most outstanding leader of the Gentile Christian church. On what day does the Bible say that he met with Gentile God fearers?
    Nic Samojluk
    ***Again, the pathway for presenting the gospel was through the Jewish people and their synagogues. There is no record that the Apostles and their immediate successors taught laws unique to Judaism to Gentile converts.

    • Lee, you wrote:

      “There are foods, however, that we should avoid to some extent such as fatty foods, foods that are high in cholesterol, high carbohydrates food and sugar drinks especially if you are diabetic, drinks high in caffeine if you have hypertension, etc.”

      I agree!

      Nic Samojluk

      • Yes, there are some things we can find agreement on but these issues are apart from the Bible itself. While we should practice good health practices – good common sense, our lives are really in the hands of God who in the writings of a book, are all the events of our lives. He can call us to the grave anytime regardless of our eating habits.

        I once met a very elderly gentlemen while in the Philippines who was 104. I asked him what he credited his longevity to and as expected he credited it to the will of God as I was with a missionary at the time. I then asked him if he did anything different than others, and his answer was that he did not eat meat, only fish. I asked him if he smoked or drink and he said occasionally.

        Apparently a good positive attitude with little or no stress is really a better key to longevity than our eating habits.

      • Lee,

        Notice what the Angel Gabriel said Jesus would do:

        New International Version (©1984)

        She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” [Matt. 1:21]
        The promise stated that Jesus would save his people from their sins, not from the Law. The function of the Law, according to Paul, was to show us our sins [Rom. 7:7] Without God’s Law we can’t find out that we are sinners, and we feel no need for God’s saving grace.

        Nic Samojluk

      • You wrote: Notice what the Angel Gabriel said Jesus would do:

        She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” [Matt. 1:21]
        The promise stated that Jesus would save his people from their sins, not from the Law. The function of the Law, according to Paul, was to show us our sins [Rom. 7:7] Without God’s Law we can’t find out that we are sinners, and we feel no need for God’s saving grace.
        ****
        Notice also what the Spirit of Jesus taught us in Galatians 4:4-54 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

        And what exactly was God’s purpose for the law?

        Galatians 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

        For those that want desperately to be under the law, view Galatians 3:10,13

        For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
        …Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

        And what does “redeemed” mean?

        And yes indeed, the law does teach us what sin is, but I believe it is much more than just the transgression of law.

      • Lee,

        Jesus saved us from curse of the Law–not from the Law. The Law’s function is to lead us to Jesus!

        Nic Samojluk

      • Your wrote: “Jesus saved us from curse of the Law–not from the Law. The Law’s function is to lead us to Jesus!”

        Christ came to redeem us from the law! that we might be adopted as sons.

        Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

        Galatians also tells us that the law was but a ‘schoolmaster’ or ‘guardian” to breing us to Christ so that we may be justified by faith.

        (3:24-26) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. BUT AFTER THAT FAITH IS COME, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A SCHOOLMASTER..For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

        Those that walk by faith in Chist, are those that satisfy all the requirements of the law.

        (3:11-14) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

        So if you want to be under the law, you will be under a curse! Adventists seem to spend very little time studying Galatians – an epistle written to counter the teachings of the Judaizers.

      • Lee,

        This is incredible. God blessed the weekly Sabbath, but you are suggesting that we are cursed for accepting such blessing bestowed on the Holy Day.

        Nic Samojluk

      • you wrote: This is incredible. God blessed the weekly Sabbath, but you are suggesting that we are cursed for accepting such blessing bestowed on the Holy Day.

        Not at all, what scripture is saying is that we are under a curse if we try to be justified (declared righteous) by observng the law.

        Ga 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

        As to the Holy Day,scripture tells us that it was not only the Sabbath that was declared to be holy but other days as well. Passover, for instance.

        Levitcus 23:2-5 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘These are my appointed feasts, the appointed feasts of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies.”‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD. “‘These are the LORD’s appointed feasts, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times:The LORD’s Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month.

        And yes there are some Sabbaterians that fully believe one should observe not only the Sabbath but also the other feast days AS COMMANDMED BY THE LORD.

        If I can believe the article in Proclamation magazine on this topic that some in Adventism are esbalishing what they call synagogues to observe all the Jewish festival events.Lets face it, if you desire to observe anytihing that is pecular to the OT, then you shold go full trottle on everything.

      • Lee,

        Perhaps I need to quote Paul again:

        New International Version (©1984)
        “Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.”

        The Law is like a mirror. When I look in the mirror in the morning, I realize that I need to wash my face and comb my hair–the little I have left, which remind me about the following personal anecdote.

        One morning I woke up fifteen minuted to 8:00 and realized that I needed almost that much time to get to school. I dressed up and rushed to the Academy. I got there on the nick of time. When the Math teacher saw me, she issued and order: She sent me to the bathroom to get my face washed and my hair combed.

        In my rush to get to school on time, I had forgotten to look in the mirror!

      • As to the law, despite the fact that we as Christians are not under it, there is still an obligation to it. Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

        Those that belong to the Lord must endeavor to be obedient to the Lord as if we are not then we can expect as children to have His discipline.

        Hebrews Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

        And we fall under His discipline if we willfully ignore what is expected of us.

        Is breaking the Jewish Sabbath a sin? If you answered “no” you got the right answer. In fact, all the listing of sin found in the New Testament do not have breaking the Sabbath being a sin. (Mark 7:21f,Romans 1:29f, Galatians 5:19f, 2 Timothy 3:1f)

        And yes, Nic, the church is under the New Covenant – a covenant that does not have any command or even a hint of a command to observe any holy day. Nor does God Spirit convict us of not observing the Sabbath.

        It is unfortunate that Adventism like some of the cults, tell us that the early church was corrupted after the death of the last Apostle. In that they stand as a judge.

      • Lee,

        The Jewish Sabbath? There were no Jews when the Lord blessed the Sabbath, and Jesus told us that the Sabbath was made for man–that is for Adam and Eve. If Adam was a Jew, then we are all Jews!

        Nic Samojluk

      • The issue in Mark 2:27 “ And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” was HOW should the Sabbath law be interpreted and observed by those people, the Jews, to whom it applied.

        The Jewish teachers of the law, at least many of them, had made the Sabbath a burden for the people. Jesus was pointing out that human needs sometimes supersede legal requirements.

        His statement has no application to the question of whether Christians should or should not keep the Sabbath. The question was HOW should those who are REQUIRED to keep the Sabbath (the Jews under the old covenant) do so in a particular circumstance.

      • Lee,

        When God promises to write his Law in our hearts he is referring to the Law he wrote on two tables of stone. This is evident from what Jesus said about the 613 laws written by Moses. He said: “Moses said … but I say unto you …”

        This is evidence that there is a clear distinction between what God wrote and what Moses did. The laws of Moses do not possess, according to Jesus, the same authority as God’s Law.

        Nic Samojluk

      • One of the problem we have in discussion concerning the law is in the differentiation of the law.

        Adventism strives to classify the different types of law into moral law, ceremonial law, judicial law, law of Moses, Law of the lord, etc. but I suspect that this is because it is about the only way they can justify observing the Sabbath since there is nothing in the New Covenant (New Testament) that commands the observance of any day as holy.

        Luke 2:22-24 And when the time came for their purification according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every male who first opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”) and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of the Lord, “a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.”

        In Luke’s gospel, there really does not seem to be much difference between the law of Moses and the law of the Lord.

        Unger’s Dictionary defines the law of Moses as “signifies the whole body of Mosaic legislation (1 Kings 2:3, 2 Kings 23:25, Ezra 3:2); called with reference to its divine origin the law of Jehovah (Psa. 19:8; 37:31; Isa. 5:24; 30:9). In the latter sense it is called by way of eminence, the Law (Hebrew hat torah, Deut. 1:5, 4:8, 44; 17:18,19; 27:3, 8). The law is especially embodied in the last 4 books of the Pentateuch.

        Why Adventists chose to single out only the Decalogue only, it appears to be simply a matter of choice.

        However, if we look at the bottom line, the law is fulfilled whatever it may constitute, by love of neighbor.

        Romans 13:9-10 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

        As Christians I believe that if we focus on this verse and follow what it really says, we will lack nothing of any significance.

        The righteous live by faith in Christ and not by the law depending upon His Spirit to guide us in every step of our walk.

        We are to seek the righteous not not not of the law but that righteousness that comes only from God.

        Romans 1:17 For in it (i.e. the gospel) the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

        And that righteousness of God is acquired by abiding in Him.

        Hope that your flu is over. I rarely get the flu but I strive to stay away from crowds and sick people as much as possible.

        My wife is better this morning. She has her good day as well as her bad. Sometimes she makes me believe she is about to die.

      • Lee,

        You focus your Christianity on our love towards our neighbor. How about our love towards God? Which commandment is greater, our love towards our neighbor or out love towards God? What did Jesus say was the greatest commandment?

        I am glad your wife’s health improved a little bit. I am praying for her. If it is his will,
        God can heal her regardless of her condition. My flu is slowly receding.

        Nic Samojluk

      • You focus your Christianity on our love towards our neighbor. How about our love towards God
        ***Does not the Bible plainly state that love of neighbor fulfills the law or does it not. You really need to answer that question.

        Romans 13:9-10 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
        Note the phrase ‘and any other commandment’. Is not the first 4 commandments of the Decalogue commandments?

        Among other things, we show love towards God by the way we treat our neighbor. True or False?
        Our duty to God is to believe in Him.

        Joh 6:29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

        And you are accountable to Him in all you do and think.

        Which commandment is greater, our love towards our neighbor or out love towards God? What did Jesus say was the greatest commandment?

        ***Luke 10:27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

        Do we show love towards God by obeying a command He gave to Noah to go build a boat as the flood is to come? Do we show love toward God by obeying a command given only only only to the nation of Israel, or do we show love toward God by obeying what He commanded of His church? Whiich does God honor the most, our walk in faith or ouir walk by the law? (See Romans 1:17, Gal. 3:11 for that answer).

        I am glad your wife’s health improved a little bit. I am praying for her. If it is his will,
        God can heal her regardless of her condition. My flu is slowly receding.

        ***My wife has her good days but lately mostly bad. She is ready to go home to be with her Lord. I tell her that our bodies wear out and we need new ones.

      • Lee,

        You seem to purposely ignoring a very important fact: When Jesus quoted that text, he was citing the Decalogue in a nut shell:

        Luke 10:27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

        If you reject this, there is no point in wasting precious time in continuing this exchange of views. We might as well use our precious time for something more productive.

      • Yes, I can see that Romans 13:9-10 does not not not say what it says as it leaves out the most important Decalogue commandment God ever gave to the human race.

        Of course, you ignore 2 Corinthians 3:7f that the ministry of death and condemnation was that which was written in letters on stone, and Hebrews 8:13 which states that the old covenant made at mt. Sinai, became obsolete and if so, then all you have in support of the Sabbath in the New covennant is a tenet from an obsolete covenant.

        And then you willfully ignore the fact that Chrisitans are children of the Promise given to Abraham, that the children of those from Mt Sinai are children of slavery whose mother is Hagar. Have you ever read Galatians 4?

        The righteous live by faith; not by the Decalogue – Romans 1:17, Gal. 3:11.and in that the Lord is pleased. FAITH!!!!!!

        In any case, I wish you all the love God can give you and your family for this coming year. I have enjoyed our dialogue through I did not expect to change the minds of anyone who has a fixed mindset.

      • Lee,

        I live by faith in Jesus Christ, and I am more than happy to worship God on the day he blessed–not for the Jews–but for Adam and Eve who were not Jews.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee, I was raised a Methodist and have seen both sides of the Sabbath issue.

        My minset is based on the example Jesus set for us in the New Tesatment Scriptures.

        I do wish you a very Happy New Year and we do continue to pray for your wife.

        God Bless!

        Roger

      • //Lee, I was raised a Methodist and have seen both sides of the Sabbath issue.

        **Interesting enough most of my early religious education was from a SDA neighbor who was without a church siince there was none in the area. They gathered every Friday night for private worship and I was often a part of that meeting. The father was a farmer who worked like mad on Sundays and seldom did much of anything the rest of the week. He owned a 40 acre farm next to ours(and was dependent upon us for much of the work on his farm. We owned the well from which he got his water and often depended on us to help him with his harvest.

        They gave my mother Patriarches and Prophets by White and I used to beg my mother to read stories from it. So I owe much to those SDA neighbors.

        While we belonged to a local Presbyterian church in town, we often went there only on Easter & Christmas Eve. Those were days of mud roads and poor transportation.

        //My minset is based on the example Jesus set for us in the New Tesatment Scriptures.

        **Again, where do you draw the line in observing the Old Testament? Should we also like Jesus become circumcised, observe the various feasts, obey the Levitical dietary laws? It seems that for Adventists, these things were decided by Ellen White and the early pioneers of Adventism. However in that we realize that they were nearly all uneducated and lay people having been caught up in the religious fanaticalism of the early 1800′s. (Worst yet there were others having similar experiences to those of Ellen White).

        //I do wish you a very Happy New Year and we do continue to pray for your wife.

        This is going to be a very tough year for me as I see my wife’s health continue to decline. She is a retired teacher and brings in around 40 percent of all our income. As a consequence, I am buttoninig down on all my purchases in anticipation of that lost income. I will be paying off all the debts we have incurred. However, I can survive on my income alone.

      • Lee . . . Our prayers are with you and your wife. Also in your anticipation of what is to come for you in the future . . . May God Bless you abundantly and guide you with your finances and life!

        You have our love, my friend!

        Roger

      • //Our prayers are with you and your wife. Also in your anticipation of what is to come for you in the future . . . May God Bless you abundantly and guide you with your finances and life!
        ****
        Thank you very much, I really appreciate that:

        I pray also that the pain I will have will not be wasted but be something that will be used to bring me closer to the Lord as well as make me a better servant of His church.

      • Lee,

        I have a very serious question for you: Suppose the Lord were to grant Roger’s and my prayers on behalf of your wife’s healing.

        Would you then be willing to cease your belligerent and never ending negative attitude towards the Sabbath and Ellen White?

        Nic Samojluk

      • Nic //I have a very serious question for you: Suppose the Lord were to grant Roger’s and my prayers on behalf of your wife’s healing. Would you then be willing to cease your belligerent and never ending attitude towards the Sabbath and Ellen White?

        While we may pray for healing, whatever the Lord’s will is, that is what we must accept. The Lord does answer our prayers, however, often goes beyond what we ask. Taking her home to be with Him is often His best choose.

        My wife is much older than I am (84)and is at that age when most people die.

        Death to me is simply a gateway to another existence. We need not fear it as our eternal salvation is in Christ and not in how well we obey some ethical religious system nor does it always depend upon the imperfections of our theology. Eph. 2:8-10

        My attitude towards the Sabbath and Ellen White is really my desire for sound doctrine.

        Suggested reading: “Doing Well at Being Sick – Living with Chronic and Acute Illness” by Wendy Wallace.

        “Facing Death and the Life After“, by Billy Graham.

      • Lee,

        I wish you would answer my question. Please, read my question and try to answer it. You can answer it with a “Yes” or “No.”

      • wish you would answer my question. Please, read my question and try to answer it. You can answer it with a “Yes” or “No.”

        We can only be encouraged if we pray for each other. You have my persmission but bear in mind that God’s will will be done.

      • Lee,

        This sounds like my previous question dealing with the Sabbath, which you evaded and never answered.

        This means that you will probably never answer this one either. Both questions can be answered with one word.

        What is the point of our dialogue if you refuse to answer the most simple questions?

        Nic Samojluk

      • You seem to purposely ignoring a very important fact: When Jesus quoted that text, he was citing the Decalogue in a nut shell:

        Luke 10:27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

        If you reject this, there is no point in wasting precious time in continuing this exchange of views. We might as well use our precious time for something more productive.
        ***
        Have you ever considered the fact that Jesus was under the Old Covenant dispensation and that His answers were often to a Jewish audience under the Old Covenant?

        If a Jew has asked Him if one should become circumcized and observe the law of Moses what would you have expected His reply be? AWAIT YOUR ANSWER.

        Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

        The requirments for the believer under the Old Covenant are different than those under the New Covenant. Agree?

      • Lee,

        You seem obsessed with destroying the only day of the week God blessed. This reminds me of the false prophet Balaam, who under inspiration stated that there was no way for him to curse what the Lord had blessed.

        God did bless the Sabbath, and it will be blessed regardless of all our efforts to the contrary.

        Nic Samojlouk

      • //You seem obsessed with destroying the only day of the week God blessed. This reminds me of the false prophet Balaam, who under inspiration stated that there was no way for him to curse what the Lord had blessed.

        God did bless the Sabbath, and it will be blessed regardless of all our efforts to the contrary.
        ***
        Adventism seems to have an excessive obsession with the Jewish Sabbath making it a requirement for our Christian walk. However, if the Sabbath were applicable to the church, then most certainly we would see something of it in the Epistles as well as taught by the early church leaders many of them being successors of the Apostles.

        The view that the church became corrupted and that the Sabbath was changed by Rome is totally unsupportable by any historical fact and really is a judgment on the inability of the Holy Spirit to perserve the basic doctrines of His church.

        Like Mormonism and other cults, Adventism claims the early church became corrupted both in doctrine and practice.

      • Lee,

        We follow the Bible, what God wrote on two tablets of stone, the example by Jesus and his disciples. You are the one obsessed in altering the Word of God.

        Nic Samojluk

      • You wrote: We follow the Bible, what God wrote on two tablets of stone, the example by Jesus and his disciples. You are the one obsessed in altering the Word of God.

        If you follow those 2 tablets of stone, then you are still following in that ministry of death and condemnation which was brought to an end and replaced by the more glorious ministry of the Spirit.

        2 Corinthians 3:7-9 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.

        You really need to stop and think about these things more in detail so that you can move away from walking in law to living by the Spirit. The Lord honors those walk is by faith; not those walk according to the law.

      • Lee,

        You are forgetting that said “ministry of death” was designed to lead us to Jesus, who is ready to forgive our sins and rebellion.

        Read “Romans 3:20 one more time. Paul did not denigrate the Law written on two tablets of stone by God’s finger the way you are. In this, you are doing God’s enemy’s work.

        It is high time for you to stop doing the Devil’s work. He is able to continue his destructive work without your help!

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee,

        You are forgetting that said “ministry of death” was designed to lead us to Jesus, who is ready to forgive our sins and rebellion.

        Read “Romans 3:20 one more time. Paul did not denigrate the Law written on two tablets of stone by God’s finger the way you are. In this, you are doing God’s enemy’s work.

        It is high time for you to stop doing the Devil’s work. He is able to continue his destructive work without your help!

        Nic Samojluk

      • Actually Constantine made the change ‘legal’ before he left Rome and turned Rome over the the Papists.

        Roger

      • //Actually Constantine made the change ‘legal’ before he left Rome and turned Rome over the Papists.

        No respectable church historian will agree with that. What you have is simply propaganda used by Sabbaterians to advance their own agenda and at the sacrifice of the truth.

        When such people are asked for historical references, we find the really do not have any.

      • Lee ….And you expect us to accept your propoganda ?

        Lt’s face it Lee, you discredit anything that carries the Adventist name!

        Roger

      • //….And you expect us to accept your propoganda ?

        Let’s face it Lee, you discredit anything that carries the Adventist name
        ****
        Did the Roman Emporer Constantine change the Sabbath to Sunday? Most Adventists today do not support that view as it simply cannot be substaniated from any reliable historial sources. Historian sources inform us that the Sabbath was not observed by the beginning of the second century by Gentile churches. (Jewish Christianity was largely destroyed during the uprisings against the Romans – the leadership shifted to Antioch after Jerusalem church was destroyed).

        Do I reject anything that has the Adventist name? It is much like anything else, one has to be able to separate that which is true from that which is false, the supportable from the unsupportable, fiction from non-fiction, etc. There are some advantages not being raised in a particular denomination.

        And yes, I do not believe Andrews was a reliable historian.

      • In a bid to unify his empire, he, Constantine, esttablished the first laws making Sundaythe offical day of rest. His A.D. 321 law, for example stated: “On the venerable Day of the Sun (Sunday) let the magistrates, and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed.”

        NOT from the writings of Ellen White!

      • Nic & Lee . . . I offer the following from church authorities that acknowledge that there is no command in the Bible for the sanctification of Sunday:

        Catholic Cardinal Gibbons, in Faith of Our Fathers, page 111 said, “You my read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious ovservance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify,”

        The year of 321 A.D. Constantine, yielded to the suggestion of the church leaders and passed the first Sunday law! This is the record of that event: ” Let all the judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades rest on the venerable day of the sun.” Edict of March 7, 321 A.D. Corpus Juris Civilis Cod., lib.3, tit. 12, Lex.3.

        From the Encyclopedia Britannica, ninth edition, article, “Sunday.” It says: “The earliest recognition of the observation of Sunday as a legal duty is a constitution of Constantine in 321 A.D. enacting that all courts of justice, inhabitants of towns, and workshops were to be at rest on Sunday (venerabili die Solis), with an exception in favor of those engaged in agricultural labor.”

        And questions put to the Roman Catholic Church authorities: 1) “Question – Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept? “Answer – Had she not such power, she could not have subsitituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no scriptural authority.” A Doctrinal Catechism, by Stephen Keenan, pg. 174.

        The question is again asked: )2 “Question – Which is the Sabbath day? “Answer – Saturday is the Sabbath day. )3 “Question – Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday? “Answer – We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” From “The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, page 50, third edition………………

        Jesus said, “But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” Matthew 15:9

        …. and in Daniel 7:25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and laws. …….”

        Gentlemen, there are statements from men of five protestant religions that I can supply that support the seventh-day as the true Sabbath.

        Roger Slonaker

      • Roger,

        Thanks for your contribution to this protracted discussion which has gone now for ages. Some of the material you have submitted is very valuable while other details I have presented to Lee sometime ago.

        Nic Samojluk

      • yes, the Roman Church does claim that the leadership of the church Christ established was the Roman Catholic church, that their descendency is from the commission given to Peter, their first pope by Jesus Christ in Matthew 16::18.

        And that the claim for the change of the Sabbath to Sunday was made by the Roman church during Apostalic times.

        Frankly, I distrust any denomination as it is all too easy to see that they are all hungry for power. Thomas Jefferson once remarked that democracy is safer as long as there is division among the churches. I think he was right.

        While we pray for Christian unity, the unity of denomiatonal Christianity will occur only under the leadership of the false prophet during the end of times. We often confuse unity of religions with unity in Christ but there is a drastic difference. Worst yet we often mistake academic credentilals with spirituallity. I have listened to those with advanced theological degrees and even a child can see that they often do not represent the church Christ established. These eggheads are the ones that are pomoting ordination of homosexuals to the ministry causing splits in the chuches.

      • NIc . . . Appreciate your comment. It would appear that no matter what eveidence we offer from the Scriptures it is falling on ‘deaf-ears’ or a ‘closed-mind.’ My prayer is that the Holy Spirit will open Lee’s mind to receive the these truths.

        Happy New Year, Nic.

        Roger

      • Roger,

        Happy New Year to you as well.

        And Happy New Year to Lee as well! We are still praying for Lee’s wife!

        Nic Samojluk

      • Thank you for your prayers for my wife.

        She is a very godly woman reading God’s word every day as she is able to do so. She read the Bible from cover to cover twice this year alone and begs me to pray with her every evening before retiring.

        She credits me for leading her to Christ, but I feel that I was only one part of the overall effort that His Spirit made in leading her to Christ. She was a devout Roman Catholic attending church nearly every morning where she lived.

        She was a special education teacher and has helped dozens of children to enter the main stream society having jobs that they could do. Most of them have became tax paying citizens not dependence upon the State or others for their needs.She has left a positive mark on many.

        When the Lord calls her home will be a time of gracious reward and total joy I am sure. It has indeed been a privelege to be her husband for over 35 years. She believes that the Scripture tells us that she will be with the Lord when she passes on; not asleep until the resurrection of the body. This is because there is the body, soul, and spirit within mankind 1 Thes 5:23.

        Thank you and God bless you and your family for this coming year. May you come into the knowledge of the truth in all aspects..

      • Lee,

        You are a lucky man to have a wife like that!

        Nic Samojluk

      • //
        Thank you for your prayers for my wife. She is a very godly woman reading God’s word every day as she is able to do so. She read the Bible from cover to cover twice this year alone and begs me to pray with her every evening before retiring. She credits me for leading her [...]

        Lee,

        You are a lucky man to have a wife like that!

        Nic Samojluk
        ***Thank you Nic, and it you were to talk to my wife, she most likely would tell you that I was the one who lead her to Christ. She was not the only one who has said that of me, but believe God works through others even puts the words in their minds so that they may through the light provided by the Holy Spirit brought into life with Christ.

        1Co 1:31 Therefore, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

      • Roger//

        Nic & Lee . . . I offer the following from church authorities that acknowledge that there is no command in the Bible for the sanctification of Sunday:

        The quotes you made from historical sources are really misleading and out of context.
        True that the Roman Church believes it changed the Sabbath and their catechism claims that authority, however, a little further reading tells us that they believe their church made the change back duirng the Apostolic times. Remember Peter in Roman Catholics was the first pope.

        I have the 8 volume set of History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff. It is more imformative and far more accurate version of church history. I also have this works on my Kindle and am reading it piece by piece.Suggest you read his works.Of course, it you do not want the truth of the church, you should not.

        Sorry guy, but Adventism has little, if any, support from historical sources. Even SDA scholars admit to that.

        What we do see in church history is that Adventism was birthed in the radical religious movements of the early 1800′s. Their unique doctrines were created by uneducated dirt farmers who had little or no training in interpretation of scripture. Even some among them later rejected these doctrines, one being William E. Miller himself.

      • Lee,

        Jesus and his disciples were rejected for the same reason. What could ignorant Galileans teach the experts from Jerusalem. “Can anything good come from Nazareth?”

        Nic Samojluk

      • The problem in the Galatains church was from those who believed they could be more spiritual if they followed the laws of Judaism.These were the Judaizers (there being modern Judaizers in todays church)

        The answer to this situation was very simple:

        Galatians 3:3b-7Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”? Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.

        There was much the same situation when those in Jerusalem saw that Gentiles were being filled with God’s Spirit and that without doing the jib in the Old Covenant laws.

      • Lee,

        Pay attention to the context. That text is talking about the circumcision ritual

        Nic Samojluk

      • Pay attention to the context. That text (in Galatians) is talking about the circumcision ritual

        And what was involved in circumcision? If one became circumcised that person was oblighated to oberve all alll all the law including observing the O/T sabbath.

        Ga 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

      • Lee,

        Which Sabbath? The weekly Sabbath or the yearly Sabbaths?

        Nic Samojluk

      • //
        Pay attention to the context. That text (in Galatians) is talking about the circumcision ritual And what was involved in circumcision? If one became circumcised that person was oblighated to oberve all alll all the law including observing the O/T sabbath. Ga 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is [...]

        Lee,

        Which Sabbath? The weekly Sabbath or the yearly Sabbaths
        ***As I previous stated, if one became circumcised, that person was obligated to observe all the tenets of Judaism including the Sabbath fesivals as well as the weekly Sabbath.

        Interesting that Bacchiocchi in his books rejects the traditional view of Colossians 2:16 that the Sabbath in the view is the festival sabbaths. if the Sabbath is the weekly sabbath, then clearly it became but a shadow of the things to come, but the reality was jesus Christ.

      • Lee,

        Yes, but your reasoning does not work in the reverse. The fact that those who were circumcises were required to keep all the Jewish laws is no evidence that the God Fearers who worshiped in the Jewish synagogues did not keep the Sabbath.

        Nic Samojluk

      • //Yes, but your reasoning does not work in the reverse. The fact that those who were circumcised were required to keep all the Jewish laws is no evidence that the God Fearers who worshiped in the Jewish synagogues did not keep the Sabbath.

        I covered this topic before in saying that one of the commentaries held that those “god fearers” were those that came to believe in the god of the Jews but did not submit to circumcision. This certainly was the case with Cornielius Acts 10 as well as others. Whether they kept other laws that were Jewish is really unknown.

        Romans 2:26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

      • Lee,

        You answer misses the point. I stand by my statements regarding this issue.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Jesus was a Jew under the Old Covenant law and thus did keep the Sabbath. But are Gentiles required to keep the Sabbath, as the Sabbath was made for man (Mark 2:27). A very good reference to this topic is found in the Grace Communion International article http://www.gci.org/law/sct12.

        Perhaps this will help you in your understand of God’s Word.

        Have a good Lord’s Day!

      • Lee,

        Here is a quote from the article you asked me to read:

        “Jesus did not say when the Sabbath came into existence. Nothing in the context indicates that Jesus was referring to creation week.”

        The author of said article must be blind. It is true that Jesus did not state when the Sabbath was made, but the Bible clearly states that the Sabbath was blessed on the seventh day of creation week.

        Can a blind theologian lead anyone to the truth? Jesus said that when a blind man leads another blind man both will fall of the right path.

        Nic Samojluk

      • Amen, Nic

        Roger

      • Here we go again drifting away from Scripture using human resouces!

        I said we will drop Ellen White from our discussion, then why should we accept your human sources ??

        Roger

      • Jesus was a Jew under the Old Covenant law and thus did keep the Sabbath. But are Gentiles required to keep the Sabbath, as the Sabbath was made for man (Mark 2:27).

        A very good reference to this topic is found in the Grace Communion International article http://www.gci.org/law/sct12. Perhaps this will help you in your [...]

        Here we go again drifting away from Scripture using human resources!
        I said we will drop Ellen White from our discussion, then why should we accept your human sources ??
        *****
        You may wish to note that what these “human resources” are teaching is geared totally to Scripture. If one cannot back up their views from Scripture which is our standard, then we may not accept it.

        Was Jesus a Jew under the Old Covenant law? Galatians 4:4-5 tells us that, does it not?

        Should we not neglect those teachers the Lord has given to His church for our instruction?

        1 Corinthians 12: 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

        While we can debate whether or not the so-called “sign gifts” have disappeared as they were prevalent only in the Apostolic Age, I rather doubt God stopped giving the gift of teachings, helping, or administrating.

        Granted we need the gift of discernment to be able to identify the false teachers from those the Lord has truly sent. Discernment is something the church really needs in this age.

      • Lee . . Samuel Bacchiocchi received his schooling in Rome from the Jesuits and I certainly don’t subscribe to many of his writings and interpretations. Here we go again referring to human sources!

        Roger

      • //Lee . . Samuel Bacchiocchi received his schooling in Rome from the Jesuits and I certainly don’t subscribe to many of his writings and interpretations. Here we go again referring to human sources!

        Samuele Bacchiocchi was a theologian and church historian at Andrews University. While he had received much of his schooling in Rome, he became a respectable theologian for the Seventh Day Adventist church.

        Are you not aware that he as well as others like him, trained those who you hear from the pulpit in your churches today? They spread their ideas to the general congregation who has been trained, not to question, but to believe believe believe.

        And that is one major problem we face in churches today. I have found that all too often pastors become suspicious of people that are capable of doing independent research on their own.

      • Not the Pastor we have! Our Pastor and I have discussed serveral of Samuele Bacchiocchi’s comments that he made late in his life and we both disagree with several of his thoughts and interpretations.

        The influence of his early Jesuit training was showing through.

        By the way my Pastor received his Masters from Andrews and is currently working on his Doctorate.

        Roger

      • The influence of his (Bacchiocchi) early Jesuit training was showing through.

        By the way my Pastor received his Masters from Andrews and is currently working on his Doctorate.
        ***
        As mentioned before, sit in the pew of any church, go to their Sabbath or Sunday school, and you will sooner or later start to think like those you associate with. I found that to be true while attending the church of the Nazarene when I was a single parent. Their doctrine reflects that of the Holiness Movement. And I am sure that the Roman Church influenced Bacchiocchi to some degree.

        By the way, my Pastor received his Masters Degree in theology from Westminster Seminar and is currently working on his Doctorate from the same institution. He is really good at sermons and once he receives his doctorate probably will leave for more fertile ground where his expertise can better be used.

        And yes, your friend Kerry Wynne – also a 3rd generation Adventists, received his degree from Andrews as well.

      • Lee, The information you offer is no more than from man and certainly not from the Bible.

        You have never answered why Jesus kept the Sabbath in the New Testament: Mark 2:27 Then He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
        This scripture also validates the Sabbath being the ‘Lord’s Day” and not Sunday!

        Also Isaiah 58:13 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the Lord’s holy day honorable . . . .

        The texts of scripture covering Jesus healing on the Sabbath:

        Matthew 12:9-14 Mark 3:1-5 and Luke 6:6-11

        Matthew 12:8 …”For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

        Mark 2:23-24 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfileds, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

        Seven Sabbath Miracles:

        Mark 1:21-28 Jesus sends a demon out of a man.
        Mark 1:29-31 Jesus heals Peter’s mother-in-law.
        John 5:1-18 Jesus heals a lame man by Bethesda Pool
        Mark 3:1-6 Jesus heals a man with a shriveled hand.
        Luke 13:10-17 Jesus restores a crippled woman.
        Luke 14:1-6 Jesus heals a man with dropsy.
        John 9:1-16 Jesus heals a man born blind.

        Lee, Scripture validates our Lord Jesus keeping the Sabbath all through the New Testament.

        You can’t change the meaning of these Scriptures, Lee . . . It’s very clear!

        Roger

      • //You have never answered why Jesus kept the Sabbath in the New Testament: Mark 2:27 Then He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

        The issue here was on how the Sabbath was to be observed by those who were required to observe it.

        //This scripture also validates the Sabbath being the ‘Lord’s Day” and not Sunday!

        When the term “Lord’s Day” is mentioned in the ancient writings it always pertain to Sunday; not the Jewish Sabbath.

        //Also Isaiah 58:13 “If you (the Jewish people) keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you (the Jewish people) please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the Lord’s holy day honorable .

        It is indeed a delight to worship with others as when 2 or more believers are gathered together there is the Lord among us.Matthew 18:20.

        . .

      • Lee . . . There you go again quoting ‘ancient (human) writings and not the Bible!

        So, are we to understand, when Jesus or Bible writers use the term Jewish we are to ignore those Scriptures ??

        I don’t think so, Lee!

        Roger

      • Roger wrote: So, are we to understand, when Jesus or Bible writers use the term Jewish we are to ignore those Scriptures ??I don’t think so, Lee!

        You really need to ask yourself whether the church is govened by the New or the Old covenant (declared obsolete in Hebrews 8:13).

        And what Jesus said to the Jews also applicable to His church. If you believe every command in the Old Testament is also to us, then you should obey what God commanded Noah and go build a boat. And you must beleive that everything commanded only to Israel is also a command to Christians.

        Galatians 4:4-5 is really the stickler!

        But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

        Do yourself a favor and look up the word “redeem”.

        Scripture also tells us that the law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ that we might be justifeid by faith.

        (3:24-25) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

        WHAT????? Is scripture telling us that after faith is come we NO LONGER need the law?

        If you are submisive to the indwelling Holy Spirit, you do not need the law. However if you are lacking the Indwelling Holy Spirit, you do need the law.

        Romans 8:9b . Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

        1 Timothy 1:8-11 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

        I do incourage you Roger, to keep looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith.

        Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2-3

        Hope to hear from you again.

        lee

      • Lee, Are you trying to tell us, ‘once saved, always saved,?

        I would appreciate your response to the above Nic,

        roger

      • Roger,

        I agree with Paul who stated that having preached to others was no guarantee of salvation. Jesus himself affirmed that many in that day will say, Lord, we did this or that, but he will respond: “Depart from me ye workers of iniquity.”

        Nic Samojluk

      • //I agree with Paul who stated that having preached to others was no guarantee of salvation. Jesus himself affirmed that many in that day will say, Lord, we did this or that, but he will respond: “Depart from me ye workers of iniquity.”

        Galatians 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

        yes indeed there was those who believed that they must observe the law of Moses in order to be legitimate. And like today, there are among us those that are false and many that think they are Christians but really do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit within in them.

        Romans 8:9b anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

        And it is the indweling Holy Spirit that distinguishes the false brethren from those that truly belong to the Lord.

        The Apostles were very astonished when they heard that God had accepted the Gentiles who believe despite the fact they had not observed the laws of Juduaism.

        Acts 10:45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.

        Interesting that there are those today believe we must become Jewish in order to be legitimate Christians.

      • Lee,

        Cornelius was a worshiper of God. This kind of believers did worship in the Jewish synagogues, and they met on the Seventh day of the week. Is this so difficult for you to understand?

        Nic Samojluk

      • Nic wrote: Cornelius was a worshiper of God. This kind of believers did worship in the Jewish synagogues, and they met on the Seventh day of the week. Is this so difficult for you to understand?

        All we really know about the background of Cornelius is summed up in the following verse.

        Acts 10: 1-2 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.

        As to whether he worshipped in the Jewish synagogues and observed the Jewish Sabbath has to be something you picked up from extra biblical sources (Patriarchs & Prophets?).

        And that is why it is so difficult for me to understand as the record does not support these views.

      • Lee,

        No, I picked this from the Bible. Read Acts 15:21. The context suggests that the reference is to the gentile “God fearers” who worshipped God in the Jewish synagogues.

        Nic Samojluk

      • No, I picked this from the Bible. Read Acts 15:21. The context suggests that the reference is to the gentile “God fearers” who worshipped God in the Jewish synagogues.
        ****
        Acts 15: 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.

        At the time this was written, the church in Gentile communities was composed of both Jewish and Gentiles who gathered around the synagogues on the Sabbath. However, allowances had to be made to take into account the convictions of those who wished to continue in the tenets of Judaism.

        As time moved on, Christians were not allowed in the synagogues but met in homes. The church leadership according to historians, passed on to the Gentiles after the church at Jerusalem was destroyed.

        I doubt that the early Gentile church sit around and read Moses every time they gathered.

      • Lee,

        The text I cited has nothing to do with the church in the second or third centuries. The text refers to the time when God fearers were worshiping in the Jewish synagogues, and the Jewish synagogues met on the weekly Sabbath.

        Your answer went on the tangent, as usual. Can you please stick to what I am asking?

        Nic Samojluk

      • Lee . . . And we are to accept Phillip Shaff over the Bible ?? You just can’t stay with the Bible can you Lee ! ?

        Roger

      • Lee . . . And we are to accept Phillip Shaff over the Bible ?? You just can’t stay with the Bible can you Lee ! ?

        Roger …. And we are accept Ellen White over the Bible??? You just can’t stay with the Bible can you Roger!?

        Church historians are those that have studied what the church believed over the centuries and why they believed as they did. In this case, early church history according to church historians tell us based on the evidence they have collected, that the early church by the beginning of the second century no longer observed the Jewish Sabbath. Why? simply because the Apostles and their immediate successors did not teach laws that were uniquely Jewish in nature.

      • Lee . . . You have my answer in a response 15-minutes ago. I clarified my position regarding Ellen White!

        You still go with your human sources, we go with BIBLE Scripture authored by the Holy Spirit, not Ellen White.

        Roger

      • Roger you wrote: You still go with your human sources, we go with BIBLE Scripture authored by the Holy Spirit, not Ellen White.
        ***
        Give me a break!! Adventists spend huge amounts of time reading Desire of the Ages, The Great Controversy, and Patriarchs and Prophets by Ellen White and are these not not not human sources?

        But the problem here is that Adventists believe that Ellen was a mouthpiece of God, that everything she uttered and wrote was from God.

        “In ancient times God spoke through the mouths of prophets and   apostles. In these days he speaks to them by the Testimonies of   his Spirit” (” Testimonies,” Vol. IV., p. 148; Vol. V., p. 661).

        “It is God, and not an erring mortal, that has spoken” (Testimonies,” Vol. III., p. 257). She states over and over that those who doubt or oppose her are fighting against God, sinning against the Holy Ghost. Thus: “fighting the Spirit of God. Those. . . who would break down our testimony, I saw, are not fighting against us, but against God” (p. 260).

        “When I went to Colorado, I wrote many pages to be read at your camp meeting. . . God was speaking through clay. You might say this communication was only a letter. Yes, it was a letter, but prompted by the Spirit of God, to bring before your minds things that had been shown me. In these letters which I write, . . . I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision – the precious rays of light shining from the throne”  (” Testimonies,” Vol. V., pp. 63-67).

        O, no you say, I am attacking Ellen White! But is what I say true or false?
        You might ask yourself Roger if whether or not you really know what Adventism truly teaches.

        I can see why some in the SDA really want to junk her and stick to the Bible ONLY!

      • Now Lee . . . Do you see me quoting Ellen White? Let us stick with the Bible Scriptures as you will never accept Ellen White’s writings and that’s Okay with me.

        But let us stay with the true meaning of the Scriptures and not convolute them and take them out of context.

        I leave you with one Scripture today:

        Matthew: 22:37-40 Jesus replied: “Love the Lord your God with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second islike it: “Love your neighbor as yourself.’

        Now notice the last verse: ‘ALL THE LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

        One more:

        Matthew 28 verse 1: AFTER THE SABBATH, at dawn on the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK, Mary Magdalene and the other mary went to look at the tomb.

        Roger

      • //I leave you with one Scripture today:

        Matthew: 22:37-40 Jesus replied: “Love the Lord your God with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second islike it: “Love your neighbor as yourself.’

        Now notice the last verse: ‘ALL THE LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

        Agree with that scripture 100 percent, but does it say we must observe commands God gave only only only to the Jewish nation to show we love God?

        I can see easily also that all the law is wrapped up in love of neighbor.

        Romans 13:9-109 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

        Love is WHAT? If you answered it is the fulfilling of the law, you got the right answer.

        One more:

        Matthew 28 verse 1: AFTER THE SABBATH, at dawn on the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK, Mary Magdalene and the other mary went to look at the tomb.

        Christ arose on Easter Sunday! and that became the Lord’s Day

        Yes, we can easily see that the early Jewish church continued in the tenets of Judaism as they had yet to fully understand the significance of the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. But the rub came in when Gentiles asked if they must become circumcised. And if circumcised, thereafter must obey ALL the laws of Judaism